The Dennis Rodman Paradox And How CFOs Can Protect Irreplaceable Specialists With Jack McCullough
In this Episode of FP&A Unlocked, host Paul Barnhurst features returning guest Jack McCullough, founder of the CFO Leadership Council, for a conversation about The Rodman Paradox and what it means for FP&A teams. The discussion explores how specialists can create outsized value, how leaders should recognise them, and how to manage them without turning them into the wrong kind of generalist.
Jack McCullough is the founder and president of the CFO Leadership Council, a professional community he built to empower senior financial executives through peer learning and collaboration. Over the course of his career, Jack has served as chief financial officer for twenty-six companies, leading not only finance but also business development, HR, and IT functions.
Expect to Learn:
Build FP&A teams with the three Cs: communication, curiosity, courage.
Rare specialists can outperform broad generalists.
Spot true critical specialists vs. those who just seem important.
Find hidden influence by who people turn to in crises.
Avoid promoting specialists away from their best work.
Here are a few relevant quotes from the episode:
You want to encourage a culture of what I call the three Cs, which are communications, curiosity, and courage." – Jack McCullough
"The Rodman paradox is there might be people that on the surface seem like they have a limited skillset, but because there are so few people who can do it well, they may actually be more important to your organisational success than executives." – Jack McCullough
Jack brings the perspective of a seasoned CFO, author, and adviser who has spent years thinking about financial leadership, specialist talent, and the skills that matter most in modern finance.
Follow Jack:
Website - https://cfoleadershipcouncil.com/
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jackmcculloughcfo/
Earn Your CPE Credit For CPE credit, please go to earmarkcpe.com, listen to the episode, download the app, answer a few questions, and earn your CPE certification. To earn education credits for the FPAC Certificate, take the quiz on earmark and contact Paul Barnhurst for further details.
In Today’s Episode
[00:00] – Trailer
[01:42] – Jack shares the coming book The Rodman Paradox
[05:56] – The three Cs for strong FP&A teams
[07:27] – Why the book is about specialists, not basketball
[13:15] – How to spot a Rodman through influence and crisis
[20:19] – Managing specialists through motivation and bureaucracy
[30:05] – AI may increase the value of specialists
[33:42] – Career advice for future CFOs and FP&A leaders
[40:57] – Reflecting on the ultimate interview opportunities
[45:57] – Wrap-up
Full Show Transcript:
Host: Paul Barnhurst (00:00):
Welcome to another episode of FP&A Unlocked. Are you tired of being seen as just a spreadsheet person while others get a seat at the table? Well then welcome to FP&A Unlocked, where finance meets strategy. I'm your host, Paul Barnhurst, AKA The FP&A guy, and each week we bring you conversations and practical advice from thought leaders, industry experts, and practitioners who are reshaping the role of FP&A in today's business world. Together, we'll uncover strategies and experiences that separate good FP&A professionals from great ones, helping you elevate your career and drive strategic impact. This week's guest needs no introduction. He's been on the show before and I'm thrilled to welcome back Jack McCullough. Jack, welcome to the show.
Guest: Jack McCullough (00:46):
Great to see you. Excited to be back.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (00:47):
Yeah, I'm excited and looking forward to our conversation. So for my audience, I'll give a little bit of Jack's background and then we'll jump into questions. Jack is a respected authority on financial leadership and the founder of the CFO Leadership Council, a premier global organisation with more than 2,500 senior financial executives. A seasoned CFO himself, Jack has advised and led companies across industries, helping redefine the CFO role as a strategic driver of business transformation. He's also the author of three books, Secrets of Rockstar CFOs, my favourite, The Psychopathic CEO, An Executive Survival Guide, and his latest MBA for Lunch: A Concise Practical Advice to Core Business Concepts for Busy Professionals. So got to ask, when's the book come out?
Guest: Jack McCullough (01:42):
Yeah, the next book, The Rodman Paradox, coming out in July. So really excited about that. July 21st is the exact date. In fact, if you look over the corner, you can see the author's copy, which literally arrived about two hours ago. So I was like a kid at Christmas. I was actually tracking the Federal Express package.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (02:00):
That's exciting. I like the name The Rodman Paradox. I'm a jazz fan. It's hard to like Rodman.
Guest: Jack McCullough (02:06):
Well, I'm a Bostonian and when he was playing, I hated Rodman. So my friends were like, "What?" Because the Larry Bird era, right? It was a glorious time to be a Boston Celtics fan. And we didn't hate Magic Johnson, but boy, did we not like Dennis Rodman.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (02:24):
Yeah. I don't know many fans outside of those that benefit from that really liked Rodman. He was a unique player.
Guest: Jack McCullough (02:30):
Yeah, very unique. But the one thing about him is as a basketball player, he seemed limited. All he did was rebound and play defence, but he won an awful lot of games. In fact, he has the highest winning percentage of any player in the history of the NBA, more than Michael Jordan, which is surprising to people. More than Bill Russell who won 11 championships, more than Steph Curry, more than anyone. And he wasn't just a passive, just happened to be at the right place at the right time. He was a key contributor on those teams.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (03:01):
Well, I think what people forget is everybody remembers the Bulls years when he pretty much said, "I'm not going to shoot. All I'm going to do is rebound and defend." But you go back to the Pistons years, he was playing four different positions on defence. He was scoring double digits. He was never a great score. That was never his strength, but he scored at a decent clip. So I think sometimes all anyone thinks about, and he was great in the Bowls era, don't get me wrong, but he was a much more complete player than I think people realised when he chose to be.
Guest: Jack McCullough (03:31):
Yeah, he definitely was. He became kind of obsessive with rebounds as his career went on. In fact, there's one game and people think he was kind of doing it on purpose, but he had 28 rebounds and zero points. And he had a couple of really open shots towards the end of the game, but people were theorising he knew that this might be historic. He couldn't have known for sure, but he's like, "I bet nobody's ever had 25 rebounds without scoring." So he intentionally gave up scoring opportunities to - I
Host: Paul Barnhurst (04:03):
Vaguely remember that.
Guest: Jack McCullough (04:05):
And he actually did that twice, which is just because as you might guess, that's never been done by anyone in whatever number of tens of thousands of NBA games in history. And he did it twice within six weeks. So he was an impressive rebounder. You got to give the guy that.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (04:20):
No, he was a great defender, impressive rebounder, very complete player. I mean, people forget he won titles with the Pistons. He won titles with the Bulls. I think he won five titles in his career, if I remember right.
Guest: Jack McCullough (04:33):
You're good. Yep, that's correct.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (04:35):
Played for five teams, I think, four or five teams. The Spurs was a disaster. The Mavericks were a disaster, but the Bulls and Pistons were a lot of success.
Guest: Jack McCullough (04:44):
The Spurs were interesting because he was like pre-Duncan. And the only year that David Robinson won an MVP was when he had Rodman as a teammate and it's because he could focus on some other things. And for those who don't know David Robinson, excuse me, just an absolute athletic freak. He was a generation ahead of the centres of his era.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (05:07):
All right. Well, everybody's probably like we came to an FP&A podcast. We didn't expect to hear nothing but basketball talk. So for those that you are like, what in the world are they doing? We'll get into a little bit more of the show, but there's a reason we'll get back to that in a minute, the Rodman Paradox. We are going to talk a litle more Dennis Rodman. So if you don't want to hear any of it, you could turn off now. But we will also talk FP&A and finance and leadership, and there'll be a purpose to all this. But before we jump into the book and some of those things, I want to ask you a question. I've already asked you what great FP&A is. You've been on the show before. So I want to start with this question. Similar line, what do you think is the most important thing an FP&A leader can do to create a high-performing FP&A team in a company?
(05:54):
What's the most important thing they should be doing?
Guest: Jack McCullough (05:56):
It's tough to come up with one type of thing. If you ask me tomorrow, I may give you a different answer, but I think you want to encourage a culture of what I call the three Cs, which are communications, curiosity, and courage. You want to have a team that communicates well. It's not just the data. Don't give me a bunch of numbers. Tell me the story behind these numbers. Curiosity and FP&A people, generally speaking, they tend to be curious by nature. They may have picked a different career path if not, but encourage curiosity. Intellectual curiosity is the greatest asset you can get from your team. And then courage. If you're making a mistake or even the president or whatever is making a mistake and you've got some data that suggests it, you don't want them to sit on that type of data. You want to have them the courage to share the data, to say, "This is what I've learned.
(06:52):
You need to listen to me. This is the direction I think you should go in. " And you know what? Occasionally they're going to be wrong and that's okay. But you don't want to punish them for the strength of their convictions and doing the right thing.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (07:06):
I like that. The three Cs, communication, curiosity, and courage. Thank you for sharing that. I appreciate it. So we talk a little bit about your new book. We can see the author's copy there in the background. Tell people what the Rodman paradox is. You and I talk a little bit about his basketball career, but I'm sure the book is about much more than just his basketball career.
Guest: Jack McCullough (07:27):
Yeah, the book was named for Dennis Rodman, but it's not about Dennis Rodman.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (07:32):
Sure.
Guest: Jack McCullough (07:32):
It's the idea and he was a specialist. He was great at two things. And yet as you mentioned, he won five world championships and he just was an incredible winning percentage. And I was just sort of wondering, is that applicable in business? And what happened, it actually is sort of an FP&A type of thing. A friend of mine who's a CFO, he was doing some restructuring in his company and we had a conversation after. And he shared with me, he had a controller that he really liked. She was versatile, good leader, understood the business, well respected throughout the company. And then he had a relatively junior FP&A type of person. And he actually ended up letting go the controller, but kept the FP&A person who was fairly limited. However, the FP&A person was really good at generative AI. And this was a couple of years ago too, so that skillset was pretty rare at the time, more so than it is today.
(08:30):
And he just made the decision, I can replace a controller, but my FP&A person has a skillset. It's going to take me a year to replace it. And there's no one on the team that can replace it. Even three people pitching in don't have her expertise. So it got me thinking, is there a role for specialists and how important are specialists to the company? So the Rodman paradox is there might be people that on the surface seem like they have a limited skillset, but because there are so few people who can do it well, they may actually be more important to your organisational success than executives.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (09:04):
Yeah. So it's really that idea that sometimes there's somebody that's very narrow in their focus but is incredibly valuable.
Guest: Jack McCullough (09:12):
Exactly. And it's across all industries. I'm an MBA so I can say this, but you have a CEO who's an MBA smart person from elite school, blah, blah, blah. That's great, but there's 120,000 MBAs graduate off the college campuses every single year in the United States alone. If you've got a design savant, say you're an art company, how many of those are there? If you had to pick between the design savant or the CEO with an MBA, who's more replaceable? Probably the CEO.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (09:44):
I started my career working for the government. I was a procurement in the US Navy. And generally to reach the highest level, almost everybody had management, managed a bunch of people, except for at the base. There were several people with that highest pay band that were the PhD, one of the only ones in the world that could do the rocket science type weapon stuff they were doing. And they were paid like they were almost running the whole base. That same type of level, I think it was GS-16 equivalent or whatever, even though they didn't manage anyone. So that's kind of that rodman where it's like, okay, their key to this project, even though we don't want them to manage anybody, they'd be terrible at it, but they have a skillset and a knowledge that almost nobody does.
Guest: Jack McCullough (10:31):
You're right, exactly. And that makes them invaluable. It makes them a little bit dangerous. Nobody wants a single point of failure, but sometimes these people, their skillset is so unique and they become irreplaceable, not because they're selfish. I mean, they're willing to share what they know, but there might just be nobody else in the company or the organisation that can do what they want even if they share exactly what they do.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (10:56):
Why is that? Why do you think they're so much harder to replace? Because you have someone you think of, hey, this is the star performer, but that other person that's doing a narrow thing may be so much more valuable. So why is that?
Guest: Jack McCullough (11:08):
Yeah, it could be. I mean, I don't want to keep going back to the basketball metaphor, but if you look at those Chicago Bull teams that were great, their starting centre was Luke Longley, who he's about as athletic as you and I are, I think. He
Host: Paul Barnhurst (11:22):
Was an average NBA player. I mean, it wasn't bad, but he wasn't something to write home about. He wasn't awful.
Guest: Jack McCullough (11:29):
Jordan, of course, was good at everything. There was no aspect of the game back then that he wasn't at least above average at. He was an above average rebounder, Pippin was average, but he was really, Rodman was the only person who could actually go up and rebound and get them. And there's an argument to be made in the 96 finals that Rodman, even though Jordan was given the MVP award, that Rodman was actually the most valuable player. The Seattle Supersonics have come out and said as much that Rodman was the guy we really didn't have an answer for. But yeah, there's just some people, either it's a unique skillset or it might be just something nobody else really wants to do. They like to do the dirty work. And there are people, we live in a world of stars and nobody says, geez, I want to have a career doing the dirty work.
(12:15):
But the people who do, who like it and become good at it can make a really good living and find themselves invaluable.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (12:21):
I've never seen a salesperson's like, I want to do the dirty work. They want to be the diva.
Guest: Jack McCullough (12:26):
Yeah, exactly. But in the sales world, there might be the inside salesperson that it's not glamorous, but they're capable of making 300 outgoing calls day after day every day. They're really good at doing it. They can get the message across. Doesn't seem that hard, but you get someone that does it in an elite level, you've really got something. So it might be more important than the VP of sales in some scenarios.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (12:52):
No, there's some truth to that, which kind of leads me to a question. How do you identify or how do you know there's a rodman in your organisation? Because some people may specialise in something and not be valuable. And I don't want to say not, but you could let go and they're not critical. They're not valuable at that level where, hey, if we replace them, it's critical to the whole organisation.
Guest: Jack McCullough (13:15):
Yeah, not every specialist is a rodman. It has to be -
Host: Paul Barnhurst (13:19):
That's a good way of saying it. I was trying to think of the way to phrase it here.
Guest: Jack McCullough (13:22):
But yeah, I mean, the way to look at it, the single points of failure. And there is a thing, often crises reveal who your rodmans are because at the C-suite, you don't necessarily have full visibility into the company. I mean, if it's a small company, presumably you would. But you can determine from who do people turn to during crisis? Who is it that's getting invited to all of the meetings? Are you familiar with the ONA, the network analysis tool?
Host: Paul Barnhurst (13:51):
I don't think I am. It's
Guest: Jack McCullough (13:52):
Okay. But you've seen that the traditional org chart, the president's at the top of the experimental. That was actually created by a railroad company in the 1850s. And the guy who created it, his memory was failing him and he just set that up so he could remember who was who within the company. It's a little bit outdated. It has its place, but what that shows is hierarchy. The ONA, the network analysis tool, that shows influence. And it's just a way whose name keeps popping up on the Slack message boards? Who gets invited to meetings outside their own department all the time? Who do the customers call during a crisis? These are your rodmans. They're so quiet. They don't bring a lot of visibility to themselves, yet your rank and file employees and other people know exactly who to go to during a tough moment.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (14:41):
So what I'm hearing is they're often the people that your customers, your other employees look to during crisis, not necessarily for leadership, it could just be for answers. Yeah,
Guest: Jack McCullough (14:53):
That's a fair thing to say. They have an expertise. In fact, most of them aren't very good leaders. They shoe management type of jobs, but they're harder to find because a lot of what they do is prevention. And if I can do the metaphor within the metaphor, you think of a firefighter. We all respect firefighters. They're brave. When there is a fire, they're highly visible. We love them. I mean, there's a reason they're amongst the most respected of us citizens. But there's the role of the fire preventer. That's the people who check the batteries and the smoke detectors, who make sure that there's no faulty wiring in the building, who make sure that the fire extinguishers are properly placed, things of that nature. Dulest job in the world. It's just as important and just as valuable to prevent a fire as it is to put one out should one break out.
(15:46):
Just how do you measure that and how do you recognise that? They're just kind of doing it quietly in the background.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (15:51):
Yeah. No, I appreciate that. That makes a lot of sense. There's good analogy there. What are the traits? We've mentioned that they tend not to be always great managers, they tend to be quiet. What are some of the other traits that help identify these individuals? What are other things that if I'm a CFO or a CEO and I'm trying to figure out if I have one or who it is, you kind of mentioned a little bit looking at who people go to, but are there certain character traits that you've seen as you did your research?
Guest: Jack McCullough (16:22):
They do tend to be quiet and they actively avoid the spotlight. If there's a company meeting and you recognise them for something they did, they may just absolutely find that apalling. They don't want something like that. They're the types that want to quietly do their work and do it really, really well. I don't want to say they're poor communicators because that's not really fair, but they are unconventional communicators where, do you remember the movie Office Space, the TPS reports or something like that? They're not going to fill out a bunch of TPS reports no matter how nicely you ask them, but they'll communicate. You just need to come up with a little different. If you want them to give you a weekly status report, that's not really something that they're going to be particularly good or mindful of, but they will communicate. It's just a different type of communication.
(17:13):
But again, they like to wear us cross-functionally. They're big time system thinkers. They know a lot more about the company than you might think, but mostly they kind of want their work to speak for themselves. That's one of the dominant traits, that they want to do good work and the rest of the world needs to figure out if it's good or not and pay me. You
Host: Paul Barnhurst (17:32):
Mean we like to be paid for good work even if we're a Rodman?
Guest: Jack McCullough (17:35):
Yeah, Rodmans, that's the one thing they share with conventional performers. They do value getting paid. But yeah, another trait is we've touched a little bit on, they really don't want to manage. They don't mind mentoring and they don't mind advising, but they don't want the responsibility of managing a team. They make terrible department heads. They're not even really good at project management. I like to say they don't like to go high. They like to go deep. They like to dig into things and learn things. So
Host: Paul Barnhurst (18:03):
The traditional approach of, oh, hey, they did really well on this project. We should promote them to manage a team is a bad idea.
Guest: Jack McCullough (18:09):
Yeah. I mean it's bad on multiple levels. One, they don't want it. And you're giving, it seems like it's nice, "Hey, promote your best employee." And they don't want it. They're not likely to be very good at it. And the other thing is who's going to replace them? If they're in a critical role where they were doing something, whoever replaces them may not be as good as them. So you've got a bad manager and the person doing the work on the ground is not as effective as the rodman that they replaced. Again, going back to basketball, "Hey Dennis, we want you to score and pass more. Don't want to, but I'll do it. " But now you've got a big glaring hole and there's no one to rebound and no one to defend like him if he's focused on scoring and passing.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (18:56):
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(20:01):
So this is a question. You have a Rodman doing a great job in something. How do you know when they're ready for a change? I think even Rodman sometimes want to do something new or different just because they're really good at something. So they may not want the promotion, they don't want their limelight. I'm guessing where I'm getting is how do you manage their career?
Guest: Jack McCullough (20:19):
Yeah, it's unconventional. And I said they were unconventional communicators, but you do need to be proactive with them. Take time. They'll listen. They don't want you to tell them how to do their job, but find out what motivates you. What makes you tick? Okay, you want to take on this project. How do you define success? How's the company going to benefit? What do you personally want to get out of it? What are the things I'm doing that are making your life more difficult? Shield them for any bureaucracy. That's the one thing they hate above all else is a lot of bureaucracy. Just find a way to make sure that they don't have any, that they can just go and do the amazing things that they're capable of doing.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (21:02):
Yeah. So it's really clearing the roadblocks and letting them work and then communicating so that make sure you're continuing to give them engaging projects and rewarding them accordingly, which promotions are typically not the reward path. There may be exceptions to that, but it's probably more compensation. It's not company-wide recognition, but that acknowledgement that they're important. Are those some of the things I'm hearing here? Is that kind of how to think about this?
Guest: Jack McCullough (21:29):
Absolutely. And they do, let's say as an engineer, they do want their fellow engineers to recognise their worth. And the engineers often do. They just don't really want the broader company or the C-suite to recognise. Yeah,
Host: Paul Barnhurst (21:43):
They don't want to have to stand up in front of everybody and be the show pony.
Guest: Jack McCullough (21:47):
Yeah. Yeah. They're the ones, the brilliant person that's working during the company holiday parties.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (21:52):
Yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about.
Guest: Jack McCullough (21:54):
Yeah, we've all worked with some. Just put them at the highest level of competence that you can.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (21:59):
Okay. No, that all makes sense. So often these Rodmans, I've seen a few, they can tend to be eccentric. Let's take Dennis Rodman as an example since that's the book. We all know Dennis Rodman was combustible. I think he threw ice, a bag of ice one time on the court when he was with the Spurs, showed up at a press conference marrying himself, partied all night in Vegas and we show up to a game the next day. I think he did that during game four of a finals. Things that most people would be like, "Screw it. I'm done. You're fired. It's not worth the headache." And a few teams did that with him. So how do you manage somebody that's combustible, eccentric, maybe high maintenance? I don't know if that's quite the right word to use here, but you know what I'm talking about.
Guest: Jack McCullough (22:44):
I do. And it's interesting, he had two great runs, the Pistons and the Bulls. And he had an okay start with the Spurs and he was with the Lakers. He had an interesting run with the Lakers because he was only there for one season. The game - I forgot,
Host: Paul Barnhurst (23:04):
He was one season there and what, 20 games with the Mavericks, I think.
Guest: Jack McCullough (23:07):
Yeah. Yeah. But when he was at the Lakers, I mean he missed a lot of games perhaps because of injury, perhaps because he just didn't feel like playing. But the games he played, they had the best record in the league. And the games he missed, they had less than a 500 record. But the two teams that really played well with him, Chuck Daly, the coach of the Pistons, Phil Jackson, the coach of the Bulls, they're both Hall of Fame coaches.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (23:34):
Yeah, I was just going to say they're two of the probably top 10 coaches of all time.
Guest: Jack McCullough (23:38):
Exactly. And they didn't try to change him. And there was a lot of scepticism. Rodman's reputation was after Daley left the Bulls, he kind of soured on the Pistons. The Spurs, the end of the Spurs era was considered a disaster. So Jackson was taking a big chance bringing him on board, but he and Michael Jordan took the time to get to know him a little bit. What motivated him? Look, these are the things we're going to give you. These are things we just can't live with. Can you live with that? If so, I think we can win a lot of basketball games. I suppose having Jordan as a teammate's not a bad carrot, but manage the situation so you can optimise them. Don't try to change them. That's a fool's errand.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (24:20):
What happens if you try to change them?
Guest: Jack McCullough (24:21):
Yeah, I mean maybe it's going to work in the short run, but their attitude's going to sour. They're kind of going to go through the motions. Because a lot of them are really technically astute, it may actually take you a while to figure out that they're going through the motions, excuse me. Say you're a CFO and this is a tax person. It appears that there are a lot of Rodmans in the tax world.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (24:45):
Interesting.
Guest: Jack McCullough (24:47):
Yeah. Well, a lot of loaners, but they want to do the deep research. Yeah, it might take you a while to figure out that they're not really putting in their best effort every single day. And they can sour. I mean it's like, yeah, if you're performing well, that's going to buy you a lot of latitude for a short period of time. But when the behaviour of the Rodman starts to hurt the whole system, no matter how good their work is, that's not a good thing. If they're no longer a Rodman, they just become a liability. So at some point what they are is they're the great enablers. Rodman made Jordan and Pippen better. They take care of the dirty work so the CEOs and the CFOs and the VP of sales can do their thing really, really well and not worry about certain issues. But at some point you're enabling factor or you're an exhausting factor.
(25:39):
You don't want to wait too late.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (25:40):
Yeah. So basically you got to monitor it. And if it's negatively impacting the system and it doesn't seem to get better, you have to do something.
Guest: Jack McCullough (25:49):
Yeah. And the Lakers to their credit, I mean they let Rodman go in the middle of the season. Had they been able to coach him up, they may have won the championship that year. I mean, they did have the best record in the league. This was the team with a Shaq and young Kobe. Imagine those two with Rodman playing his best basketball. Can't rule it out, but there's a reason the Lakers have won so many championships over the years and they just said, "You know what? It's just not worth it. It's not worth it. "
Host: Paul Barnhurst (26:18):
Yeah, there are certain organisations that have done a really good job of basically saying, "Hey, we're not dealing with drama." And that's in the business world, in the sports world. And I think sports, I think Miami Heat have done a pretty good job. Pat Riley was kind of known that way of not dealing with drama. But then you have others like Phil Jackson that says, "As long as I can tap into this person and they don't cross certain lines, I'll deal with it. "
Guest: Jack McCullough (26:42):
Yeah, exactly.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (26:44):
I think some of the best managers to get the most out of organisations when at the highest level have the ability to manage both. But there are also some great winners that just say, "I'm not going to deal with it at all, " but they can still get the best out of the remaining group they have. So I don't know that there's a perfect right answer here. Would love your thoughts on that.
Guest: Jack McCullough (27:02):
Yeah, that's the thing. I mean if the person has a toxic personality, he's poisoning people. I refer to them in the book as irreplaceable, but nobody is actually irreplaceable. I mean, there's some people that have come close historically, but even when Bill Gates left Microsoft or Steve Jobs left Apple, I mean, historically those sound like as close to as irreplaceable employees as you're ever going to get. But they were replaced and the companies actually performed better after they left arguably. Occasionally you get somebody like when Walt Disney retired, he was irreplaceable. He was like the creative engine of the company. I mean, he wasn't a bad citizen. I didn't mean to lump him in that category, but there's very few people in your career that are going to be truly irreplaceable. And you plan in advance too. You have the mentor young people, you take the time to understand what it is that they're doing.
(28:01):
Maybe the replacement isn't going to be as good and as effective, but if they're a better citizen and they're competent and get the role done, that might be a trade-off you have to make.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (28:10):
Jack, I can only think of two things that are irreplaceable. Your visible head and my mirror. That's it.
Guest: Jack McCullough (28:19):
Yeah, that might be it.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (28:23):
Now everything else that goes around it, they can replace.
Guest: Jack McCullough (28:26):
Absolutely. Wrigley field would be irreplaceable.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (28:30):
Do you see this whole era of AI changing anything around Rodman, how we should manage them, how we should think about him? I just feel like the world is changing so much. Do you see anything there? And now a brief message from our sponsor. Is your AI thinking like a generalist or like a finance leader? Here's the thing, most large language models weren't built for finance. They're trained on everything from Reddit threads to recipe blogs. So when you plug them into your accounting workflows, the results can be, let's just say, not balance sheet accurate. That's why Campfire, the company pioneering AI native ERP just made a huge move. They've raised a 65 million series B co-led by Excel and Rivet, bringing their total to 100 million raised in just 12 weeks. And they're putting that momentum to work with LAM, the large accounting model. It's a proprietary AI trained specifically for finance and accounting already hitting 95% plus accuracy on accounting tasks.
(29:39):
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Guest: Jack McCullough (30:05):
Yeah. And let me give the caveat that every AI related prediction I've made is proven to be incorrect.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (30:12):
All right. Well, then we don't want your answer. I'll move on to the next question. I'm just kidding.
Guest: Jack McCullough (30:15):
No, but what seems to be happening is it's not eliminating Rodmans. It's actually probably making them more valuable, oddly enough, because they're kind of almost the interface between the technology and humanity. And that's a critical role. I mean, five, 10 years down the road, ask somebody a little bit more digitally savvy than me, but domains are getting a little bit more narrow. General knowledge is really being commoditized. Applied expert and specialised expertise, it's priceless. So they seem like they're in a good position. And what's interesting is Gen Z entering the workforce, and I don't want to paint the brush too broadly, but they love specialisation. It's almost like a generation with a lot of Rodmans. They just want to do meaningful work that they think is exciting, that they're learning, they're intellectually curious, and they're not into corporate careers in the way baby boomers might've been.
(31:10):
Climbing the ladder, right now that's not appealing to them. I mean, 10 years from now, before becoming a parent, I was a little bit different in my career objectives as well. But right now they're a little bit more purist. They just really want interesting work and they don't want a lot of corporate BS.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (31:29):
Nothing changes you like marriage and a child.
Guest: Jack McCullough (31:31):
No, absolutely not.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (31:33):
And all of a sudden you realise, oh, I really am responsible for everything.
Guest: Jack McCullough (31:37):
Yeah, yeah. You hold that baby, it's like, oh my God, what's next?
Host: Paul Barnhurst (31:42):
Wait, someone trusted me to take care of this thing?
Guest: Jack McCullough (31:45):
What were they thinking?
Host: Paul Barnhurst (31:48):
I know. Everybody, when they ask questions, it's like you just have to experience it. No matter what I tell you, you won't know until you go through it. And there's just some things like that in life.
Guest: Jack McCullough (31:57):
Absolutely. All
Host: Paul Barnhurst (31:59):
Right. So tell us when the book comes out, how people can get it, all those fun things.
Guest: Jack McCullough (32:04):
Yeah. July 21st, and I don't want to sound like a commercial, but available everywhere, books are sold type of thing. But certainly Amazon would be -
Host: Paul Barnhurst (32:14):
I'll do the commercial for you. Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Target, Walmart, and every other major distributor of books. Did I cover it?
Guest: Jack McCullough (32:22):
That covers it. You know what? I'm kind of excited about, and I'm not going to sell very many that way, but it'll be at airport bookstores. Oh, nice. I think that's going to be really cool if I happen to walk by an airport bookstore and see my own book.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (32:34):
I don't think I've ever bought a book from an airport bookstore because I look at the prices and I'm not going to do it. But if I saw yours, I just might just to say I did it once. If I do, I'll snap a picture.
Guest: Jack McCullough (32:44):
I think what happens is it makes people buy it later. But yeah, people don't like - I would agree. I've
Host: Paul Barnhurst (32:51):
Definitely seen a book at an airport and thought I need to pick that up. Rarely do I think I want to pay this price.
Guest: Jack McCullough (32:57):
Yeah, exactly. Maybe if you're on a nine-hour flight and your laptop's on the fridge or something.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (33:02):
Yeah, and you forgot your book or you're like... Yeah, exactly. Or you're just one of those people that doesn't care. There are those that, hey, whether it's 20 or $25, I don't care and I'm just going to buy it. And good for them.
Guest: Jack McCullough (33:12):
That's
Host: Paul Barnhurst (33:13):
Generally not finance people.
Guest: Jack McCullough (33:15):
No, probably not. Yes. Even the rich finance people are a little more discerning than that with their money.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (33:21):
We're tight. Let's just call it like it is. Oh wait, did I say that out loud?
Guest: Jack McCullough (33:24):
I think you might've. So
Host: Paul Barnhurst (33:26):
I want to ask a couple questions because obviously you have been a CFO more than a few times. You talk to CFO people all the time. Many of our listeners want to become CFOs. We have some people that are earlier in their careers, maybe starting their careers that listen to the show. What advice would you give them?
Guest: Jack McCullough (33:42):
Yeah, and you may know, I predicted a few years ago that in a few years more CFOs are going to be coming from the FP&A track. Yes,
Host: Paul Barnhurst (33:51):
You did that on the show a few years ago. I remember that.
Guest: Jack McCullough (33:53):
Oh, wow. How about that? I think if you're an FP&A and you like doing it, you're already pretty well positioned for that sort of thing. But take the opportunity, learn the business, accept every opportunity for growth that's before you. Take on stretch or challenging assignments, given the opportunity, learn from them, develop communication skills. As I said earlier, don't present numbers, present the story behind the numbers and why these numbers matter. I always encourage people, find a mentor, somebody that you can learn from who has a genuine interest in your career. And then the last one is, and you know the story because I've shared this with you once, but always be nice. And I don't know if I believe in karma. I probably do not believe in karma, but just always be nice. It sort of has a way of building it's part of your brand and it's just going to open up opportunities for you.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (34:50):
People notice.
Guest: Jack McCullough (34:52):
Yeah.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (34:52):
It may not be karma, but when you treat people right, people are more likely to treat you right to want to work with you. There's just something to said to being nice, being authentic, being true. And does that always mean you're going to be rewarded? Absolutely not. There are some horrible people, at least from world standard that are rich and appear to be rewarded. Doesn't necessarily mean they're happy. That's a deeper question. But from a worldly standard, you can be doing all the wrong things and be what's considered highly successful.
Guest: Jack McCullough (35:22):
Yeah. And by the way, being nice for its own sake is not a bad thing either.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (35:27):
No, I think it's a good way to live. The studies are there. You mentioned Greenleaf is the publisher of your book and they talk about servant leadership, which servant leadership is a good form of leadership in general, but there's also an internal reward of knowing that you've been nice, you've been a good person. That in and of itself is a reward, even rewards that can come beyond that because it's a good way to lead.
Guest: Jack McCullough (35:50):
Yeah, absolutely. And it's a more pleasant way to go through life to be nice to people. And by the way, I don't know if I shared this with you, but a restaurant in my hometown just opened named comma.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (36:02):
Oh, fun. Is it good?
Guest: Jack McCullough (36:04):
Well, they don't have a menu. Everybody gets what they deserve.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (36:07):
Well played. Well played.
Guest: Jack McCullough (36:08):
Thank you. Thank you. I'll be here all week.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (36:10):
As soon as you said they didn't have a menu, I might add it. I set that one up perfectly for
Guest: Jack McCullough (36:14):
Them. Yeah, it's an old joke and no, we did not rehearse that.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (36:17):
I've heard it before, but it's been years, so I totally forgot it. Well played. All right. One more question here and then we're going to move into a couple just general sections we have. So we talk about early in their career. Would that advice change at all or what advice would you give someone a little later in their career? Maybe they're 10, 15 years in manager, director level, so they've moved up a little bit. Any different advice you'd give them if they want to be a CFO?
Guest: Jack McCullough (36:43):
Hopefully you built on that sort of thing, but at the risk of being there, start to think like a CFO and even start to think like a CEO, be a business partner to people. Try to understand the business holistically, not just the financial piece of it. And I do tell people, whether they're controllers or an FP&A and other things, there's a lot of people out there who are smart enough and have the skillset to be a successful CFO. But the ones who are going to get the opportunity and the ones who are going to flourish once they're in the opportunity are the ones with the people skills, the leadership, the communication, the empathetic people, the collaborative workers. But when I was young, those things were referred to as soft skills. And CPA, MBA, those are hard skills. I mean the quantitative stuff is, I don't want to say it's easy for me, but it's intuitive for me at least.
(37:38):
But being empathetic, working collaboratively, those are things that it took me a while to get there.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (37:45):
See, there's a reason on doing podcasting instead of finance leadership.
Guest: Jack McCullough (37:50):
Yeah, we did actually make some similar career choices along the way.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (37:55):
We did. You went a lot farther on the leadership track before the podcasting, but we both went into the business side for sure. All right. We're going to ask a couple first FP&A questions. And so I want to change this question up for you a little bit because I've asked before, what are the top two or three skills an FP&A professional should develop if they want to be a CFO?
Guest: Jack McCullough (38:19):
You mean beyond, I guess that the three Cs are more personality traits, right? Yeah,
Host: Paul Barnhurst (38:24):
I think there's a more personality. So what would you say are the soft skills? I think communication could also be a soft skill. So obviously you could say that one. Courage I think is a little more of a personality trait than necessarily a skill you develop.
Guest: Jack McCullough (38:36):
Yeah. And curiosity, I don't know that you're born curious, but at a relatively young age you're going to be curious. Yeah.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (38:43):
So let's say outside of those, obviously you got to be able to communicate, you should be curious, you should be courageous. Let's take those ones off the table and what would you say?
Guest: Jack McCullough (38:51):
Okay. Yeah, I mean at the risk of the one that probably all your guests are going to say is AI fluency. Make sure that you're up-to-date on the current AI trends and more how they impact business, not the technical behind the scenes type of stuff, but how you can use this as a business productivity tool. But the main thing with tools is they're always going to change. I'm old enough that my first job, I was in college, not post-college. There was actually a debate whether or not spreadsheets were the way to go versus keeping those old green ledgers. I'm pretty old if that's the debate, but oh, we can do the same thing on our routing machines. We don't need spreadsheets. Crazy to think back about it now, right? Yeah, now
Host: Paul Barnhurst (39:34):
Nobody would ever hire somebody. I'm going to do all the work on the green ledger paper.
Guest: Jack McCullough (39:39):
Yeah. But yeah, more traceable or not. But yeah, the tools change, but thinking does not. So in terms of skills, try to develop that strategic thinking. And again, if you're in FP&A, you don't need to know accounting as well as a controller needs to know accounting. But the best CFOs know just enough accounting that they don't get into trouble during it because Gap still is the language of business and it's a rules-based system. I wouldn't say take the CPA exam and become a master, but know just enough to know what's going on.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (40:19):
All right. We're going to go to the get to know you section. I have a couple fun questions for you. I know you enjoy music. I know you're a music guy. So if your life had a theme song, what song is it going to be?
Guest: Jack McCullough (40:31):
Yeah, that's interesting. And yeah, I'm a headbanger. I take the stage to Metallica's Enter Sandman. But that's not the song though. It is a Metallica song. Do you know the song, The Unforgiven?
Host: Paul Barnhurst (40:42):
I'm sure I've heard it, but once I heard it, I'm not one to remember names well. As soon as I've heard it, are you sure I know what it is?
Guest: Jack McCullough (40:50):
It's not a hit. Most Metallica songs, they weren't exactly a top 40 type of band. But The Unforgiven, it's a song about just a person who's really struggling doing the best that he or she can. I mean, it's a he, a guy wrote the song. And I sort of feel like that as a special needs parent, one of the things we have in common. And I'm a father of two artistic children. I sometimes wonder if I'm the right person to be the father of two special needs kids or if it was a mistake. And I struggle with mastering that role. So I think when I heard the lyrics to the unforgiven, I just very much related to it because it's just a person doing the best that they can do. It's not always great. And can they forgive themselves or can they not forgive themselves?
(41:39):
So I'd probably go with that.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (41:41):
I like that idea of can you give yourself mercy and grace?
Guest: Jack McCullough (41:45):
Yeah, that's a good way of putting it. I almost said Goody Two Shoes by Animant.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (41:51):
And I just pulled up on Forgiven. I almost put it on the screen. I'm like, should I play it for a couple seconds?
Guest: Jack McCullough (41:55):
There you go. But Goody Two Shoes is a little more a bit of an upbeat song. All
Host: Paul Barnhurst (42:01):
Right, so there you go. Everybody go out and go to YouTube and listen to Unforgiven and give us your thoughts. I'd love to hear from you. All right, next one. I know you've done several podcasts. I know you're kind of phasing out the one you have, but you've done a lot of podcasting. If you could interview any one person in the world, you got that shot. Anybody, any topic, any subject, anywhere you wanted, who are you going to interview?
Guest: Jack McCullough (42:26):
Personal live today or anyone? Yeah, we'll go
Host: Paul Barnhurst (42:28):
With the live.
Guest: Jack McCullough (42:29):
Yeah, if it's historical that Jesus or Muhammad. But living person today, I would like an hour to, assuming he would be candid, and he's not the most popular fellow with everyone, but I think picking Elon Musk's brain for an hour would be an absolutely fascinating exercise.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (42:46):
I agree. I mean, yes, he's controversial, no question. There are people that hate him. There are people that love him. There are some that try to ignore him, but just about everybody has an opinion on him. And he's a brilliant man. You can't argue that he's been successful at many things. You can not like his tactics, you can disagree with whatever, but he's fascinating. I agree.
Guest: Jack McCullough (43:08):
Yeah. For an hour, no matter how, I just think I would learn so much from there and just be fascinating. I'd come with five questions and just let him talk.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (43:18):
Yeah, I agree. I think something would be fascinating if they would be completely candid as almost any US president. You're
Guest: Jack McCullough (43:24):
Not going to believe this. I actually wrote that down in the prep notes. I said if I could know that they would tell the truth, it would be a US president. And this isn't a referendum on the current president or anyone else. No, I just don't know that a president could or even should be honest with the questions I want.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (43:41):
I would agree. Some questions they shouldn't be.
Guest: Jack McCullough (43:43):
Yeah. There
Host: Paul Barnhurst (43:44):
Are some secrets, but yeah, if you could get the unfiltered truth, that would be a fascinating conversation and pick any of them. I don't care what side of the aisle you're on, it would be fascinating.
Guest: Jack McCullough (43:54):
Yeah. Oh, absolutely. And it would just be what they went through and their vision for the world, what an exercise that would be. But yeah, unfortunately, you might not believe a thing they say.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (44:08):
Yeah, that's why I say you got to give them a truth serum beforehand, right? All right. So what's the belief, a finance or business, maybe a professional belief you hold that most of your peers would push back on or question?
Guest: Jack McCullough (44:23):
It works so well because it is sort of the central premise of the book, of the Rodman Paradox, that there are specialists who have a very limited skillset who don't supervise people or processes, and yet they're so good at their job that they may be more valuable than any member of the C-suite. And most of the people I work with, as you know, a lot of CFOs and other members of the C-suite, they don't necessarily want to hear it, but they're also open-minded and persuadable. But I just think there's people with these unique skillsets that they're irreplaceable. And there's also a body of research that we do tend to overvalue stars in business.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (45:07):
Did your first book say half of the C-suite are psychopaths? I'm just kidding.
Guest: Jack McCullough (45:12):
Not quite half, but yeah, it was - No,
Host: Paul Barnhurst (45:15):
I put that number out there on purpose. Have a
Guest: Jack McCullough (45:17):
Little
Host: Paul Barnhurst (45:17):
Though.
Guest: Jack McCullough (45:17):
Well, there is a statistic I like that amongst American CEOs, the psychopathy rate is 19%. And amongst American prisoners, the psychopathy rate is about 19%. I joked if you worked in a prison all day and then went to a banquet for CEOs after work, you'd be surrounded by about the same number of psychopaths at each event. I
Host: Paul Barnhurst (45:45):
Guess since I haven't got myself sent to prison or become a CEO, it's a sign I'm not a psychopath. Is that what I take from this?
Guest: Jack McCullough (45:51):
That's exactly the lesson I'm making, so yes.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (45:53):
All right. So any of you listening, if you haven't gone to prison or become a CEO, there's a good chance you're not a psychopath.
Guest: Jack McCullough (45:59):
Yeah. I mean, people go into finance and accounting. Psychopaths wouldn't find it a very fulfilling career path. They might like the money, but other than that -
Host: Paul Barnhurst (46:08):
Maybe investment banking where they can
Guest: Jack McCullough (46:10):
Take a lot
Host: Paul Barnhurst (46:11):
More risk.
Guest: Jack McCullough (46:12):
Yeah. I mean Michael Douglas played Gordon Gecko as a psychopath and there are a lot of psychopaths on Wall Street. In fact, one of his great frustrations is a lot of times young investment bankers said they went into banking because of him. And he's like, "I played a psychopath." He's like, "Dear God, what have I done?" But his performance was so charismatic and compelling. You look at it as a teenager, you're not going to figure out to do the psychopath. I did until I saw it 20 years later.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (46:41):
Yeah, I know. Love it. Great example. Well, I think this is a good spot to wrap up. I appreciate you joining again, Jack. It's always a pleasure. Congratulations on the book. I know people can find you on LinkedIn. CFO Leadership Council is out there as well. You got a lot of great events. I know you travel from time to time. So audience, feel free to reach out to Jack if you need to, but pick up his book or pick up one of his first books that he has. He has several out there, but congrats on the new book. Even if I don't like the title, I'll give you a congratulations. No, I'm just kidding.
Guest: Jack McCullough (47:16):
Always great to see you, Paul. Thanks for the time.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (47:18):
Hey, thank you so much, Jack. That's it for today's episode of FP&A Unlocked. If you enjoy FP&A Unlocked, please take a moment to leave a five-star rating and review. It's the best way to support the FP&A guy and help more FP&A professionals discover the show. Remember, you can earn CPE credit for this episode by visiting earmarkcpe.com, downloading the app and completing the quiz. If you need continuing education credits for the FPAC certification, complete the quiz and reach out to me directly. Thanks for listening. I'm Paul Barnhurst, the FP&A guy, and I'll see you next time. I