Networking in Finance: The Career Advice Everyone Learns Too Late with Josette Ferrer
In this episode of FP&A Unlocked, hosts Paul Barnhurst and Glenn Snyder sit down with Josette Ferrer to discuss one of the most overlooked skills in finance: networking. While many finance professionals focus on technical expertise, Josette explains why building genuine relationships is essential for career growth, leadership development, mentorship, and long-term success.
Josette Ferrer is the Founder and Managing Director of Clairent Advisors, a valuation and business advisory firm specializing in business and intellectual property valuations. She also serves as President of the San Francisco Bay Area chapter of Financial Executives International (FEI) and is actively involved with organizations including How Women Lead, ProVisors, the American Society of Appraisers, and several executive leadership communities.
Expect to Learn:
Why networking should start long before you need your next opportunity
How to choose the right networking organizations for your career goals
Simple strategies introverts can use to build meaningful professional relationships
Why mentoring and networking naturally go hand in hand
Here are a few relevant quotes from the episode:
"Networking isn’t transactional, it’s about giving, helping, and building relationships." - Josette Ferrer
"You don’t need a title to add value; small gestures can create lasting connections." - Josette Ferrer
Networking is a crucial skill for FP&A professionals, enabling stronger relationships, mentorship, and career growth. Starting early and engaging genuinely helps build trust and opportunities over time. Remember, networking is about giving and adding value, not just seeking benefits for yourself.
Follow Josette Ferrer:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/josetteferrer/
Follow Glenn Snyder:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/glennsnyder/
Earn Your CPE CreditFor CPE credit, please go to earmarkcpe.com, listen to the episode, download the app, answer a few questions, and earn your CPE certification. To earn education credits for the FPAC Certificate, take the quiz on earmark and contact Paul Barnhurst for further details.
In Today's Episode:
[00:00] – Trailer
[04:22] – What Great FP&A Looks Like
[12:36] – Choosing the Right Networking Group
[21:23] – Why You Should Start Networking Early
[27:39] – Building and Maintaining Your Professional Network
[33:18] – Networking Strategies for Introverts
[41:21] – The Power of Mentorship
[52:05] – Final Networking Advice for Finance Professionals
Full Show Transcript:
Host: Paul Barnhurst (00:00):
Welcome to another episode of FP&A Unlocked, where finance meets strategy. I'm your host, Host: Paul Barnhurst, a.k.a The FP&A guy, and this week I'm joined by my trusty co-host, Glenn. How are you doing, Glenn?
Co-Host: Glenn Snyder(00:14):
Doing great, Paul, how are you doing?
Host: Paul Barnhurst (00:15):
Good. And the good thing is I know it's Co-Host: Glenn Snyder Snyder. I didn't call you Co-Host: Glenn Hopper. So it's Joseph. Just so you know, I have two hosts, a Co-Host: Glenn Hopper and a Co-Host: Glenn Snyder, and I confuse them from time to time.
Guest: Josette Ferrer (00:26):
Well, that's complicated. Glen, you got to change your name.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (00:29):
And they both do two ends. I tried to get Co-Host: Glenn Snyder to change his name, but he told me his mom wouldn't like that.
Guest: Josette Ferrer (00:34):
That's a showstopper, right?
Co-Host: Glenn Snyder(00:37):
You know what? For most of my life, I've been the only Co-Host: Glenn Snyder anywhere around and recently Glens have just been popping up all over the place.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (00:44):
Well, they probably heard how famous you were and wanted to be like you.
Co-Host: Glenn Snyder(00:47):
See, I just figured, you know what? I'll use a more common trend. I'm trendy.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (00:52):
Oh boy, I'm not even sure how to touch that one. I'm just kidding. We're really excited for this episode. It's a great topic. I think it's very topical, very important. I'm going to let Co-Host: Glenn Snyder introduce the topic. Anything he wants to share about himself? And then he'll go ahead and do a brief introduction of our guests we have with us today. So Glenn, over to you.
Co-Host: Glenn Snyder(01:12):
Thanks, Paul. So today we are going to be talking about something that I know when Paul and I have talked about this topic, it's something we did not do early in our careers, but it is very important. It's networking. Now, most of us who are finance professionals, we're natural introverts and we don't really like the idea of networking. We just want to go and do our work. But when it comes to growing your career, learning new things, just making connections and having to sometimes in your career you might have to change jobs, having a strong network is absolutely critical. So this is a really great topic and I'm very excited to have with us today a friend of mine, Jose. I will go over and introduce you in a second or have you introduce yourself. But just to start, Josette is the founder and managing director of Clairent Advisors, which is an asset and business valuation firm, but she's also involved in a lot of different networking organizations.
(02:14):
She's the president of the San Francisco Bay Area Chapter for Finance Executives International. She works with How Women Lead and she's on the Silicon Valley Executive Board and Get On Board Week Leadership Committee for that organisation. She's a member of Provisor's networking organisation, and she's involved in a bunch of other networking organisations as well, things like the American Society of Appraisers. So she is truly an expert in networking. But Jose, you could do the rest of your background better than I can, so I will turn it over to you.
Guest: Josette Ferrer (02:44):
Oh, well that's great. Well, it's great to be here guys. I don't know if expert is the right word, but that was a good introduction to the boring stuff about my background. Maybe just to provide a little bit more context on what I do. So we value businesses in IP. We're not brokers or bankers. We focus on what I call valuations that get reviewed by another side auditors for financial reporting work, the SEC, for our public companies. And then in some cases and increasingly more so I'm serving as an expert witness for litigation. And we work with FP&A teams regularly since forecasts are a really, really important part of our work. So I think Glen, every time we're valuing a company, we're getting in touch with FP&A and looking at forecasts. And I know you didn't reach out to me because of my day job, and so you mentioned all the different networks that I'm part of.
(03:36):
And I think that really that networking part is so important. And like you, I really didn't start networking probably what, 10 years into my career, but it's become so important related to just continuing to progress. And then in my world, our world now, it's really what drives revenue in our business. So it's kind of like the same networking muscles that we would use, whether you're an FP&A or you do what I do, it's just in a different context. So I'm happy to share today things that have worked for me and ideas that might hopefully be helpful to others that are listening to the podcast. Is that helpful, Glenn? Do you need any more information? I don't want to bore everybdd.
Co-Host: Glenn Snyder(04:15):
No, I think that is great. So we'll turn it back to Paul for your opening question.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (04:22):
I was going to say, now that I know her specialty is valuation, when my business becomes bigger, I can go to her. That probably will be never, but moving on to the topic at hand. So as Co-Host: Glenn Snyderknows and as we mentioned to you, I like to ask every guest and just see the different perspectives. I know you come from valuations and you've worked with FP&A teams, but not an FP&A. And so I always like to see how they think about this. When you think of FP&A, what makes great FP&A? What's a great kind of FP&A partner or great FP&A to you? What does that mean or look like?
Guest: Josette Ferrer (04:57):
Yeah, so I think Paul, I come from it from the perspective of reviewing forecasts. As I had mentioned that forecasts are core to our evaluations and one of the things that all we have to do is test whether a forecast holds up. We have to incorporate it in our work as part of discounting cashflow analyses. And then we have to make it defensible to the auditors or anyone else who's going to challenge it. The lawyer on the other side is going to say, "What's driving that 30% revenue growth?" And I got to have an answer, I got to have support. So I think I'm going to answer the question from that perspective. I think that great FP&A relates to forecasts and frameworks that survive challenges. So I think those challenges could come from a lot of different directions. So if it's your executive team, the CEO in a review, your board, your auditors, and then sometimes people like me.
(05:51):
And I think I've found that good forecasts, especially the ones where we're kicked around in audit, have been built in collaboration with other teams and very engaged collaboration, not just grabbing information, putting them in, and then press and go. Good relationships with sales and marketing ops, engineering, and really being able to dig in, getting the story behind the numbers. That's kind of what we see in the world that we live in as we incorporate forecasts.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (06:23):
Makes a lot of sense. And there are definitely some forecasts that are much more defensible than others. I know Co-Host: Glenn Snyderand I have both been parts of forecasts where we're like, "We don't think that's really achievable." And you're told, "Well, that's the target, figure it out. " And you do your best. So I think there's some real value when you have something that makes sense, is defensible, you can support, and there's a path to achieving it.
Guest: Josette Ferrer (06:50):
Yeah. And I think valuation's very similar maybe to FP&A where it's really a combination of the quantitative. And I say that evaluation is deceptively quantitative. Your forecasts are full of numbers, just like our evaluations, but you start to peel it apart. Every number is an assumption and behind those assumptions are qualitative squishy things or stories. So the qualitative ends up being important, sometimes in more cases, just as important as the quantitative. That's the fun part of what we do, probably what you guys do too as well.
Co-Host: Glenn Snyder(07:25):
And in fact, actually, I would say just to connect it even more closely to FP&A and what great FP&A really should be doing, it's not just forecast, but everything we do, it's about how do you back it up? What's the story behind it? What are the underlying business drivers? And that really, if your foundation of the underlying data and the assumptions is solid, the results will be better. And I think whether you are doing a forecast, you're doing reporting, you're just doing analysis, whatever it happens to be, I think it's the same skillset.
Guest: Josette Ferrer (07:55):
Yep, I agree. Absolutely agree. I think there's a lot of crossover with those skills with what we do on our end for sure.
Co-Host: Glenn Snyder(08:02):
All right. Well, so let's bring this back to networking, the topic at hand. I mean, we could talk for the full hour on forecasting, but - Our audience hears
Host: Paul Barnhurst (08:12):
Enough
Co-Host: Glenn Snyder(08:12):
Of
Host: Paul Barnhurst (08:12):
That from us.
Co-Host: Glenn Snyder(08:13):
Yeah. So let's talk about networking. And so there are a lot of different networking organisations out there just to rattle off several that you are a part of, but let's start basic. When you think about joining a networking organisation, how would you describe the cost to the individual who's joining, what benefits they get, what kind of activities, time commitments? What are we talking about there? What have you seen in your experience?
Guest: Josette Ferrer (08:40):
Yeah, I think Co-Host: Glenn Snydercan take each of those separately. So I think costs are the easiest part if we're talking dollars. You may be talking about an organisation that have yearly dues anywhere ranging from a couple hundred dollars to maybe a couple of thousand dollars per year. And often companies may cover all or part of the cost, but I think the real cost actually is time. And I think that's something that maybe people don't really think about or they underestimate. And for networking, what you get really depends on what you put in. So membership by itself doesn't do anything. I think I've seen people join organisations that go to two events and then conclude the group isn't right for them. And that investing time being consistent is key. And I think that if you do make the investment, there are so many benefits. I can rattle them off, but everything from education, seeing what peers are doing, developing relationships, I think that's the most important part.
(09:42):
And then some other things to think about too, participation could increase as you get more involved with a networking organisation, leadership roles. And these are things that can help to build your own personal brand. I think I learned a variety of leadership skills from my involvement in associations. So you're not just an attendee and a leader. And I think that some of that involvement has actually made me better at my day job. So Co-Host: Glenn Snyderand I have worked together for, I don't know how many years, Glen, up for the San Francisco Bay Area chapter. How long?
Co-Host: Glenn Snyder(10:15):
Six years, I think.
Guest: Josette Ferrer (10:16):
Okay. That just means we're
Co-Host: Glenn Snyder(10:17):
Old. Time flies, right?
Guest: Josette Ferrer (10:19):
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Don't remind me about that. We won't talk about getting old on this podcast.
Co-Host: Glenn Snyder(10:26):
Maybe the one thing I would also just touch on is some of the activities. There are events that you could go to that are just networking. You go to a happy hour. Thing is just chatting with people and getting to know them. There are educational events with discussions and experts coming in as panel speakers or whatever. There's other type of educational events that I've just said, we help put on the CFO bootcamp where people can get CPE credits, but they really learn and understand the role of the CFO going through that. And then there also could be more entertaining events. We have one coming up where we're going to be going to a Giants game in a month and that would be the San Francisco Giants, not the New York Giants, just to clarify. So I think there's a lot of different activities and different organisations.
(11:13):
I've seen golf outings and stuff like that and trips to the wine country, whatever. So one of the advantages, I guess we get to being in San Francisco. But I think some of those types of events is also, it's just a great way to get to know people and start building out those relationships and making some new friends.
Guest: Josette Ferrer (11:29):
No, exactly. And I think with the pandemic, lots of virtual events too. So there are so many different offerings to choose from. It's almost like you're a kid in a candy store and you're like, "Where do I start?" There's so many different events and so many different organisations that there's so many to pick from and it's just a matter of figuring out your own strategy. A lot of fun things to do and a lot of interesting people to meet.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (11:52):
Yeah. And that kind of leads where we wanted to go next. The reality is there's always more organisations and opportunities you have time for, whether it's conferences, webinars, fun events, strictly networking events, organisations. I think in finance, I bet if we all went through and listed ones that we consider networking, we could probably come up with 15 between the three. Or more. If not more. And so how do you evaluate? How do you decide what group makes sense for you? Because the reality is sometimes you're going to join a group and it's not going to be a good fit. So what should you be looking for? What advice would you give people to try to figure out if a group makes sense for them?
Guest: Josette Ferrer (12:36):
Yeah, it's a good question. I think it all depends on your goals. And then keeping in mind too that your goals may change over time. My goals as a 28-year-old are much different from where I'm at now. I'm not going to tell you how old I am. But I think you start with what you're actually after because different organisations may optimise for different things. So a group that's really good for one goal may be a waste of time for another. So are you after education technical development? Are you looking to network with peers to compare notes with business development? Leadership experience and visibility. I think with my organisations, two of the ones that Co-Host: Glenn Snydermentioned, FBI is peers and some education, but the Provisors is another organisation that's really focused on referrals. So very, very different goals. And I think the one thing that I would caution too about goals, I think it's how you initially choose an organisation, but it's not the whole return.
(13:40):
All those things that I mentioned are benefits, but you may join initially for those things and that's fine. And maybe it helps you narrow down the organisation that you focused on, but the relationships that you build there usually pay off in ways that are not part of your initial benefits list. So the future job that you weren't looking for, you get an introduction. It's kind of the optionality of networking. And I think that's why you really want to, if you haven't started, to start networking before you need anything. And if I could go back and tell my younger self anything, it would be network, network, network. Don't wait 10 years to network. Start as early as you can.
Co-Host: Glenn Snyder(14:21):
Yeah. So Paul, when you think about that, and certainly you and I have both been part of networking organisations, how have you gone over and found the right fit for you?
Host: Paul Barnhurst (14:30):
Yeah, so I'll be honest, when it comes to networking organisations, most of my career I was pretty bad. The organisations I joined that did lead to some great networking opportunities were often more like I did Toastmasters for years at work. That led to great networking opportunities, but I didn't join it to network. I joined it to become a better speaker. So I think sometimes people have to realise you can, like you said, more than one goal, more than one purpose. You can be solving more than one thing at once. I joined AFP. I didn't originally join it to network. Someone asked me to speak with them at a conference because he didn't realise he needed somebody else to speak with him when he signed up. It was supposed to be two people. And so I signed up and then I joined AFP because it was a really good experience.
(15:11):
And so over the years, that's something I haven't been great at is saying, "Hey, what's an organisation I should join for networking?" Full transparency. I was never real good at it. Part of it was always like, "I don't want to spend the money. I don't know that I want to go to all these events." I've done a lot of networking I'd say the last six, seven years since I started to share on LinkedIn. But for me, I look at different organisations for different purposes. There's personal networking, there's things I've done where I did a lot of networking around scouting that I was involved in, but often you talk business. And so I think there's the professional, there's the personal, and there's what are your goals? Sometimes you maybe just want to do service, but you're joining that organisation. There's going to be networking opportunities. Networking isn't just your profession or just, "Hey, help me find a job." It's about growing your connections and finding ways to share and learn from others.
(16:06):
And I think when you look at that, you can have a much more holistic approach to networking.
Guest: Josette Ferrer (16:12):
Paul, that's a good point. I think maybe you can holistically say it's just the whole concept of developing relationships. Wearing whatever hat you're wearing in life, whether it's personal, it's business, you may have different business hats. And so just continuing to develop relationships is just so important.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (16:30):
I think so. I think it's a big part of it. I think people have to remember that, yes, you want some professional organisations, no question. But professional opportunities often come from those other organisations that you're doing for whatever reason. That shouldn't be why you go into it. Don't sign up to a service organisation in the hope of getting a job. No what I'm saying at all, but they all meld together and provide opportunity and opportunity to expand your network because you never know when a connection is going to be helpful professionally, personally, in many different ways. So those are some of my thoughts, but I'd love yours, Glen.
Co-Host: Glenn Snyder(17:05):
Yeah, no, I mean along the same lines, I think of it as where you feel you're getting the right kind of relationships that you're looking for. I remember when I first started and was like, okay, I need to start networking. I was starting to look for another job and I realised I wanted to go over, connect with people in a better way. And when I joined a couple organisations, one of them I joined, it had a lot of people in it. And my first month, eight different people reached out to me and they'd say, "Hey, let's meet. Let's get together for coffee or let's do a Zoom introduction call or whatever." And I was like, "Wow, this is really cool." And all of them promised like, "Oh yeah, well we'll follow up on this afterwards, whatever." And I never heard back from any of them.
(17:47):
And I was like, "That's not really the right thing for me. " In other words, the one that Josette and I are a part of an FEI, I just was able to connect with people in such a way that we really not only built out professional relationships, I ended up building a lot of friendships. And as I was maybe looking for another job or thinking about, "Hey, how should I approach something a little differently?" There are these people that now knew me, knew where I came from in my background and I got to understand their skillset and their background. So now I got this pool of people that I could go and reach out to and everybody was so open and willing to help so much so that actually when I was looking for a job, people were coming to me and say, "Hey, Glenn, yeah, I know you're looking for a role.
(18:32):
I just heard about this. This might be a good fit for you. " And I was like, "Wow, this is really cool." Because you get people who are out there looking out for you. And to me, Paul, you and I, we talk a lot about the value of empathy and partnership and FP&A and how it has to be a two-way street. Networking is the same way. Just like what Joe said before, you got to put effort into it to get something out. And when you make it a two-way street, you're really building out a very strong relationship that pays dividends in a lot of different ways. So to me, that's really the big evaluation for me is it a relationship that I'm going to want to have and continue going forward? Do I feel comfortable with that?
Guest: Josette Ferrer (19:15):
And when you're evaluating organisations, you gave that example. It's almost like you're trying to find your people, your tribe and people that you like hanging out with. You hanging out with, you may talk business. There may be other things, but I think when you evaluate an organisation, do you feel comfortable? Do you like the people? Do you like the programmes? You can visit. Usually most organisations let you visit once. Do you like the vibe? Are they welcoming? Are they introducing you to people? Or are you standing in the back kind of like, okay, this is a click. And I don't really feel like it's open. So I think trying out organisations that you may be interested, really do your due diligence. It's kind of like looking for a house, do your due diligence, guest as many times as you can, ask questions to the members.
(20:04):
So why are you a part of this?
Host: Paul Barnhurst (20:06):
I was going to jokingly say it's kind of like dating when you said kind of like, yeah, right.
Guest: Josette Ferrer (20:11):
Maybe buy a car, maybe not a house, but buying a car.
Co-Host: Glenn Snyder(20:14):
Well, and I actually think about it because a lot of networking organisations that almost everyone out there could be a part of, it's like you're a college alumni association or something like that. But you also have to recognise if you're working in finance and somebody else is an astrophysicist, you might not have that kind of professional connection that you're also looking for. So I think again, it comes back to what are you really looking for from a networking organisation?
Guest: Josette Ferrer (20:39):
Where are you going to have the most personal synergies? I
Co-Host: Glenn Snyder(20:43):
Mean, hey, it's great to go over and go to a football game or a basketball game or something like that. But sometimes if you're looking for professional growth, understand what your goals are, which you guys had brought up. But let's flip this a little bit. And rather than thinking about from the organisation, what the organisation brings, what should the individual be thinking about here? And Josette, I think you and I both brought up here that there's a value for doing this early on. So what's your advice to people who are maybe earlier in their career who maybe don't want to necessarily spend 500 or $1,000 to join an organisation, but why should they be doing networking and how else could they be thinking about this?
Guest: Josette Ferrer (21:23):
Yeah, it's interesting because I think the earlier you can start, the better. It's kind of like planting seeds. The earlier that you can put the seeds in, the earlier stuff starts to grow. And then I think you can think about both immediate and long-term benefits. So if you join an organisation, you can see some immediate benefits like you meet somebody, you get perspective outside your company, you learn what may be happening at other places, maybe what's normal. Maybe that's not the right word, but normal and what isn't, which sometimes you can't tell if you just live in your own organisation twenty four seven. And there may be other people that you network with that can help tell you, help to maybe unofficially mentor you or you can go get advice for. So I think there's some other benefits like that that people can think about.
(22:11):
And I think just starting early is key. And maybe the one thing I would say is that find one organisation, don't join five. Find one organisation that you really feel like resonates with you and then go deep, go deep and get involved. And through that involvement, that's cheaper. You pay for one organisation. Go deep and that's really a good way to help you with various different goals depending on what they are. I think it's got to be you know that you're making the investment and maybe that there might not be huge tangible returns for a while, but just know that you're making the investment and the seeds are eventually going to sprout. I don't know if I answered your question, Glenn, but that's a
Co-Host: Glenn Snyder(22:56):
Little
Guest: Josette Ferrer (22:56):
Initial perspective.
Co-Host: Glenn Snyder(22:58):
No, I think so because I think a lot of us, especially early in our career, we're still focused on the company we're working for and maybe meeting people within the company. We're not thinking about, wait a second, maybe there's some ways that I could do my job better because people at other companies are going through something similar and I could learn from their experiences. Very rarely do I think we are coached to do stuff like that. And I think that's one of the big reasons why you want to start networking early. And not to mention the fact that if you continue to not just plant those seeds, but if you will water the plant and take care of the plant and then let it grow when you're five, 10, 15 years down the road, you're going to have some really strong relationships with people that can really pay off in a lot of different ways than maybe the way you initially intended.
Guest: Josette Ferrer (23:48):
Yeah, you got a big old garden growing of big trees and other cool stuff. No, it's interesting because I think I learned the hard way about not networking early. So I was so fortunate growing up in my early years at Arthur Anderson. Wonderful organisation, sense of stewardship, all kinds of great stuff. And then as you know, Anderson imploded in, was it 2002? I can't remember now. So I was part of the evaluation group and I knew valuation people, knew my team, but didn't even really make the effort to network outside my group. Tax people, accountants, auditors all over the building, but kind of staying insular and just knowing my group. And so when Arthur Anderson imploded, our little group evaluation people, we started Huron Consulting in San Francisco and then we had a big office opening party. Invite all your contacts to come and help celebrate opening the office.
(24:44):
I literally had no one to invite. And that was kind of like an aha moment of like, oh, I got to start networking. And now they're expecting me to develop business going, how am I going to do this? And being an introvert at Arthur Anderson, we were fortunate just to pick up the phone and work comes to us. It was really an important time in my career where I said, I have to really think about what I want to do. And that's where a lot of the initial networking seeds for me personally started. So start early.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (25:14):
Yeah. Kind of interesting you've said, I'll share something that stuck with me. I remember working at American Express, we had a senior VP, really good, someone I really respected. And I know he was one of a few people that had been considered for CFO of American Express. Never got the job. And one of the reasons I had heard, I remember who had told me someone had heard is really one of the biggest drawbacks against him was you didn't have big network. And at that level, big global one, they want you to be able to network, understand how things are working in those relationships. What can you bring to the board? What can you bring? And he had spent his entire career in the company and hadn't built that external network. And I'd never thought of it that way, but I think sometimes it can really help with getting the job.
(25:57):
And that doesn't mean that your network finds the job for you, but by having a broad network, you look better. People are going to see that you've got outside yourself and you've talked to others and you have those experiences and people you can lean on. Because I've heard it said the CFO job is one of the most lonely roles in a company like CEO. When you get that C level, who do you go to for advice? There's not many people inside the company. And so often you're going to turn to somebody in your network.
Guest: Josette Ferrer (26:27):
Yeah, you got peers, folks that you've met. If you have somebody that you can run something by, you're not going to tell them confidential stuff. But if you've got a couple of people, trusted people that you've known for 10 years and, "Hey, I go to this person for these kinds of questions, but another person has helped me grow in my career, I'm going to ask them what they think about this opportunity." Yeah, I agree with Glenn. These are people that are friends and you trust them, they trust you, and that's huge. That's just huge, right?
Host: Paul Barnhurst (26:55):
Agreed. And so something you mentioned is you wish you had done it earlier in your career. So I'd love to talk a little bit about that. I know I mentioned this to Co-Host: Glenn Snyderrecently, and I think I mentioned it to you. I had a guy on the podcast and the best advice he gave people is he said network your timeline. So I'd love to get your thoughts on that. And what he was saying is the people you network with in college, you network with in grad school and you stay connected with all along, when you're looking for those senior roles, often they're going to be the ones in senior positions. So it's going to be much easier if you network it all the way along. So talk a little bit about that idea because I think sometimes we think, okay, I just need a network.
(27:34):
I got the job. Now I can just ignore my network till next time I need a job.
Guest: Josette Ferrer (27:39):
Yeah, no, I think you got to continue that work. So I think it's a couple different things. So I think with the example, Paul, that you gave, those are people that you already know. And I think the key there is maintaining those relationships. So staying in touch with people. Sometimes it's hard. You meet great people, everybody gets busy, life goes on and, "Oh, I haven't talked to this person in five years." And so I think some of that is a lot of, and I don't do it enough, but I forget what the book is. I got to think about it. But a little bit of a system where you say there's probably 10 or 15 people that I want to make sure I continue to stay in touch with. Let me make sure that every year, maybe at the same time for different people, I ping them.
(28:23):
Let's go to lunch, let's go to coffee to continue to make sure that those relationships, so Paul, maybe the folks, somebody that you went to grad school with and they're in Wisconsin or something, you're not going to see them on the street. And some of those deliberate efforts continue the maintenance. So you're continuing to grow those trees and flowers. I think that's a little bit different than if you're trying to expand the network beyond people that you already know. What's the best way to get in? And if you're talking about younger people, maybe the advice there is volunteer. People are looking for volunteers. I'll give you an example. There was a guy last night at an event that we had, a guy who just graduated from college. He signed up for the event and we were like, "Ah, membership is limited to senior people. " But I said, "If you want to come and help us check people in, " it gave him an opportunity to get to meet people and through volunteering.
(29:18):
He's a college kid. He's got the right mentality. Start networking, volunteer for stuff. Organisations like ours, Glen, we're always looking for volunteers. Do you stuff that I want to do? And then if you can help them, they're going to be open to helping you. So is that helpful, Paul?
Host: Paul Barnhurst (29:37):
Yeah, that's great. You hit on something at the very end. Help others I want to touch on real quick and then I'll turn it to Glenn. If it was ever one of my favourite networking books, and whenever people ask for advice around networking, I recommend the book because it was recommended to me when I was working with a networking firm is The Go Giver by Bob Burke. And the whole idea, people so often think networking is about how can People help me or they feel like it's slimy or sales or politics. And we've all felt that way. I've felt that way before. But what it talks about is the right kind of networking is all about what can you give to others? If you go into it looking, how can you help others? And with a service mindset, you will get more out of it than if you go into it thinking, how can I get the most out of it?
(30:24):
It's amazing how changing your mindset can explode the opportunities in networking. So that's something I would just highly recommend. And your example there, yeah, he went into it wanting to network, but he was willing to do whatever. He said, "Oh yeah, I'm happy to serve. I'll come and check people in. " Some people are, "That's not what I want to do, but that's a great way." And he's getting in front of a lot of senior people at least to say hi that he may not have ever had the opportunity and who knows where that will lead.
Guest: Josette Ferrer (30:52):
Right. No, exactly. I think, Paul, the other thing that maybe stops younger people early on, they think that they don't really have anything to offer. You're talking about an analyst and you're talking to a VP at an event and you assume that what do you have to offer them? But I think it's not really true. You value even before you have the big title. And so examples could be you can make an introduction, you can follow up on something. If you hear that the VP is going to Lisbon for vacation, you've been to Lisbon and you loved your restaurant there or you love the tour guide and you can provide him recommendations. It doesn't have to be work related, but if you can help with something small, that could be the start of a relationship and people will remember you if you can share even small things.
(31:39):
It doesn't have to be work related.
Co-Host: Glenn Snyder(31:41):
In fact, actually just to add to that, and I think it's part of the mentality that really successful people in FP&A have too, which is how do I think about my business partners and help them out? It's the same thing with networking. It's what else can you be doing in helping people? I mean, I always look at how can I mentor people? If there's someone who needs an introduction somewhere, just maybe a little coaching for something or somebody needs, they're trying to put on an event, they need a speaker, whatever. Anything that you could do that kind of helps people out because the other thing is that you might be helping them initially, but there'll be a day that you might need some help and now they're going to be much more likely to help you because they've remembered what you did for them. And so just go out there with that mentality and I think it's a great way to build out much stronger relationships.
(32:29):
Again, it's that two-way street. And I think about people who've approached me who have been like, "Oh yeah, I'm between jobs. I need an introduction to this company because they have a position open." And then you never hear from them again. And it's just like, yeah, you know what? That's not really a relationship. And next time they're looking for a job, they come back to you again, but then you never hear from it. You don't really trust that person as much. And so having that two-way street again is I think just really important.
Guest: Josette Ferrer (32:55):
Yeah, it's not transactional. I think if people are thinking it's transactional, that's the wrong mindset. You go in and I love going to events because I just like meeting people and we can talk about tactics later, but that's kind of the fun part. I think it eventually became a thing where it was like, oh my God, I got to network. How do we do this? It's fun. It's fun to go to these events and just meet new people.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (33:18):
I think you touched on a great thing we should be talking about later. I'd love to get both your thoughts on this. What are some tactics you recommend people use to network? Many people are introverted. It's hard to start the conversation. Some people, they may see organisations they think are great, but they're just scared to go or put themselves out there. So what would you say, Joseph? And I'd love your thoughts, Glenn, to people that are in that situation because frankly, probably all of us have been in it at least once.
Guest: Josette Ferrer (33:48):
Yeah, I think that's a good question. So then when I started going to events, and so I'm going back to thinking about when I first started to go to FEI events, I had been part of Marsh and I got the opportunity to tag along with our main guy to go to events. And they were at the time these sit-down dinners where you sat down at a round table and you were kind of not stuck, but you were talking to two people. And I think my goal, I made it my goal is to go to the event and go and say, I'm going to sit next to somebody I don't know and it'll give me an opportunity to really get to know them. And I think that the goal of it's not like collecting business cards.That's kind of dating me. I think it's all the LinkedIn connections now.
(34:29):
The goal is not to work the room and collect LinkedIn connections. If you can make two, even three substantive relationships, have good conversations, go into depth, that's fun. That is less scary than having to go and say, oh my God, I got to meet 15 different people. Let me find one or two people, let's have a conversation. And then I think the fun aspect is become a listener. Then it feels like you're not going to a networking event and have to perform or impress people. Just listen. I think people who know me know that I just like to ask a lot of questions and it's not to be the inquisitor. It's just because I like learning stuff that people do. Everybody has something interesting and if you're listening, then you may hear things that they may need and then you can help them. And that's really good for us introverts where it's like you're just listening.
(35:23):
You don't have to talk so much, listen and relationships can start with that. That's less scary than the whole concept of having to work a room, I think.
Co-Host: Glenn Snyder(35:35):
I mean it's funny because as a natural introvert, if I'm in an event or something and there's a bunch of people just talking, I am more comfortable standing against the wall and watching everybody than going over and just jumping into a conversation. But one of the strategies that I like to do, and it's kind of along the same lines, Joseph, what you just talked about, is go over and look for someone who might be feeling just as awkward as you are who's just standing on their own and not sure how to go and engage with somebody and just walk up to them and ask them a question and go over and just say, "Hey, is this your first event?" Or you see on their name tag the name of the company, "Oh, what do you guys do? What's your role there?" Or something. Something very simple.
(36:21):
It's so much more comfortable when you get to talk about yourself because nobody knows you better than you. So people are usually very comfortable about speaking about themselves. So just to do that to get the conversation rolling and then ultimately they'll probably ask you some questions and now look at what you're doing. You're having a conversation with somebody you didn't know. And so it is sometimes intimidating if you feel like you're maybe the lowest level person in the room or you just don't know anybody. But sometimes I would say just try and be a little bold. And one of the things that's funny, you mentioned about sitting down next to people who you don't really know. I annoy people all the time that I work with whenever you're wearing a multi-day event because think of these meetings that you go to for multiple days and everyone goes back to the seat that they were in the prior day.
(37:09):
I purposely will sit on the opposite side of the table, make somebody move. And they're like, "Well, that was my seat." It's like, "No, go sit over there. Do something different." But I purposely try and mix it up so you end up sitting next to other people and hearing different perspectives. And I've now made it to almost like a game for me about how many people in the room can I annoy by sitting in their seat and making them go somewhere else. But it is something is so helpful to just build out those kind of relationships. So sometimes it takes a little courage, but once you do it once, second time makes it easier. The third time's even easier. And then before you know it, you're doing this without even thinking. It becomes a habit.
Guest: Josette Ferrer (37:48):
Yeah, it becomes natural and you feel comfortable doing it. And I think Glenn, you've seen me do this at events is we want to make sure that when new people come to our events that they're not in that position of like, oh my God, I don't know anybody. So we are very careful and I try to do this. If somebody looks lonely, grab them and introduce them to a group just to get the ball rolling. And if that helps them feel comfortable, especially if it's their first event, hopefully that's a good vibe. I think that's important.
Co-Host: Glenn Snyder(38:18):
And actually along those lines, because where Joe said, I have used you in the past at these events is go to the person who planned the event and say to them, who would be good for me to meet? And then have them do an introduction. This way, you're not going out and end up talking with someone who you have nothing in common with. Let somebody who knows the room know who to introduce you to.
Guest: Josette Ferrer (38:40):
Yeah, I think that's great. Just be proactive. Be proactive and get advice. And if you can get their help with making the connection, then you can do the work with asking the questions and getting to know people and really establishing the relationship. Absolutely.
Co-Host: Glenn Snyder(38:54):
So Paul, what do you think? Any new strategies that we haven't though of?
Host: Paul Barnhurst (38:58):
I don't think there's anything earth-shattering. I think it's very similar to what you do, but the biggest thing is learning to put yourself out there. The two things I will say is a lot of people are like, "Well, I don't know what to say." Come up with one or two simple questions and listen. And 80% of the time that will get you there. As Del Carnegie talks about and how to win friends and influence people. People love to hear their name. So use people's names. People love to talk about themselves. Some of the best networkers are doing only 10% of the talking. So most people like to talk about themselves, try to connect and slowly on a deeper level. I think that would be the biggest advice. Don't go ask real personal questions upfront, but just start asking questions and naturally people will volunteer more and you'll get to learn about them.
Guest: Josette Ferrer (39:49):
Yeah, I agree. And even stuff like a lot of people like to travel, a lot of people like to eat. And Glenn, I love restaurants. So a lot of the time you end up talking about food. You talk about cool places that you visited. It has nothing to do with your work, but interesting things to whoever it is you're connecting with. And Paul, there's another book, you mentioned the one about being a gogiver. There's another one that was good for me, the one that's called Never Eat Alone by Keith Farazi. There's a little bit of the system stuff too. And I'm guilty of not using it, but I think that things like that and systems are really good for analytical people like us where part of the maintenance of relationships and that idea of I got to keep in touch with those 10 to 15 people.
(40:37):
It doesn't have to be like, oh, I got to plan a big party or we got to go to dinner. Just ping them and it's a light touch and you're staying in front of them and you never know. They're in town or they're coming to town. If they're not in town, let's grab drinks or something. So there's a little bit of that if people start to get maybe more advanced with networking beyond just going to events if they want to think about how do I maintain and prioritise relationships.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (41:04):
Sounds like that's a great resource to never eat alone. Trying to find some ways to systemize it is really helpful for some people because when you have a framework that you can follow, for some people it makes it just much more likely you're going to do it.
Guest: Josette Ferrer (41:18):
Yeah. No, it holds you accountable too. For sure.
Co-Host: Glenn Snyder(41:21):
So Joseph, we talked about all these different kinds of relationships. One thing we didn't really talk much about that you do get from networking both internally and externally is mentoring. So could you talk a little bit about why you think networking and coming up with a mentor who you've networked with, why that's so valuable?
Guest: Josette Ferrer (41:43):
It's a good question. I think I was thinking about this question, Glenn, when you had written it. And I'll be honest, I never really had a formal mentor, at least in the formal definition. Nobody that I really met with monthly or had that formal mentor title, but I think it kind of goes back to what I was saying earlier. But what I do have is a handful of people that I can call about specific things. I think I've heard it referred to as your own personal board of directors, something like that where if I need help with a career move, that's a certain person. If it's something in industry or something else, that's a different person. So I think that whole concept of mentorship can be widened. And I think that whether it's a formal mentor or those kind of personal board of director relationships, it's one of those things where it's not like you go to somebody and you say, will you be my mentor?
(42:37):
It really comes out of growing the relationship together where you earn that ability to be able to ask them for things by investing in the relationship, getting to know them. You know that you guys might have synergies, you maybe have worked together and it could start as early as with, "Hey, can I get advice on this? " So I think the term is broader. Glen, I know that you mentor so many people formally. I'd be curious as to how you see my answer.
Co-Host: Glenn Snyder(43:11):
No, it's funny because I'm part of mentorship programmes through UCLA where I did my undergrad. I mentor two students every year. I mentor a lot of people actually that I've met in FEI. And I think mentorship to me, because I've also, I've never had that formal relationship with someone above me. But what I really look for is someone who could give me a different perspective because I'm going to understand the world that I see. I want to understand how does the world that I see fit into a larger world that I'm not seeing? And that mentorship or someone who has that perspective who you could go to and just get some advice or say, "Wait, what am I not thinking about here? What's the angle that I'm not seeing that's going to come back and bite me if I don't do something type thing." That is I think really a very helpful person to have.
(44:03):
And I agree with you, it could be multiple people in different areas. But I would also say that when you get your career to a certain point and you feel like you have some expertise, it's a great way to give back as well, to be someone's mentor. Many companies have mentorship programmes for junior people in the company. Schools will do it. As I mentioned, I do that with UCLA. Different organisations will have different types of mentorships for people who want to learn. And I always tell my mentees, "I'm not going to go and set up a meeting with you. I'm not going to go and tell you how often we're going to meet. You need to own that. You need to go over and drive when you want to meet and how often, but however often you want to meet, whatever you want to talk about, I'll be there." And that's my commitment to them.
(44:49):
But I'm like, "You have to put in the effort." And I found that 50% of the time people ask me for mentorship. Maybe they just have one conversation with me and they're like, "Yeah, I don't want to talk to you anymore." And I never hear from them again. But the other side of it is that I get people who I know when they say, "Hey, you know what? At the end of next meeting, let's talk again in three weeks. Or what's your schedule like in a month from now?" And it tells me that I'm adding value to them and that they appreciate. So it's kind of a rewarding thing for me too to be able to get back. So I think that mentorship you could look at from both sides, but it's all about learning and seeing that different perspective to make sure that you're making the right decisions.
Guest: Josette Ferrer (45:27):
Yeah, I agree. And I think, Glenn, as part of my role in running the San Francisco Bay Area chapter, I think, like you said, there are ways that I continuously look to help people. Everything from giving advice to some of the things that we're doing, helping people with their own development. If people want to get more exposure, can we help you with getting a speaking engagement? Starting with moderating a panel, can I coach you with how to do that? Or doing a Q&A session. So helping people with wherever their goals are. If I can get them connected with people, if I can give them opportunities through some of the programmes that we're developing, those are ways that through networking, a little bit of that informal mentoring can happen. Yeah,
Host: Paul Barnhurst (46:12):
I'll just say one thing on network or not, the mentoring. I think often there's informal mentors, great to have. There's internal and external. If your company offers mentoring programmes, take advantage of them. If you get the opportunity to mentor with people more senior than you, take advantage of those. Because the reality is it's not that they're smarter, it's not that they're better at their job. Life experience that others have can teach you a lot. And someone that's been in the career field for 30 years is going to have seen and done things that if you're five years into career, odds are you haven't even thought about it yet. And so it's just a great way to learn even not because they're in the position of power or anything like that. I think sometimes people think, well, how could I have anything persons way up here?
(47:05):
One day you'll realise, oh, they were the same as I was. They just had more experience type of thing. And so I think don't be afraid of those opportunities. Embrace them as an opportunity to learn.
Guest: Josette Ferrer (47:16):
Yeah, I agree. And I think one of the interesting things is learning from folks who are senior than me. What are the lessons learned? What are the things that you would advise people not to do? Sometimes you got to learn on your own what are their war stories? Those are some of the most interesting stories that I think I've learned from people who are senior than me. And it helps with perspective as to you still make your own mistakes, but just learning about perspectives on things like that.
Co-Host: Glenn Snyder(47:42):
Yeah. And look, I mean, I have a strange personal experience for this because throughout my career, I've always kind of viewed myself as kind of a glorified peon. I would be a peon at the company. I'd be like an analyst, senior analyst, but I'd have executive exposure because I would put myself in those kinds of situations. And one quick story, I was at Charles Schwab and I cleared it with my boss. I wanted to make sure he was cool with this. I decided to just go and ask the CFO to go out to lunch one day with me. And I'm like, "I got some questions I'd love to ask you. " And he wrote me back within 45 minutes. He's like, "Yeah, let's go next Tuesday." And we met in the lobby and we went out to lunch and he said, "No one ever asked me out to lunch.
(48:24):
Everyone, I don't know, are they afraid of me? What's going on? " And we were having - Yes. Right, exactly. And it's like sometimes people are so intimidated by the title that they don't see the person. And he was a phenomenal guy that I ended up building out a great relationship with. And at the end of the lunch, I mean, the funny thing is I told him, I'm like, "Hey, this is my treat. It was my idea." And he's like, "Yeah, give me a break. No, no, no, I'm ready for this, " kind of thing. But it was one of those things that we ended up connecting. And he told me afterwards, thank you for reaching out to me. He's like, "I wish more people would do it. " And you never know. So take the opportunity. Sometimes they just be a little bold and ask somebody to go get coffee or lunch or something who you may not think would be even interested in talking to you because I bet they would.
(49:15):
And it's a great way to also just see a different perspective. I was actually debating a career change at the company at the time. And he went over and he weighed in and he shared with me, "Well, here's what I think about that group that you're looking at and here are the opportunities. And here's why I think if you stay here in finance, what you could be doing." And here I am getting the CFO giving me career advice I wasn't even asking for, but his perspective was so valuable in helping me make the right call. So you never know, but sometimes you got to take advantage of things. If you're working at a large company or even if you're working at a small company, just invite the CEO or the CFO, or if someone's travelling to your office or you hear about them and they normally work on the East Coast and you're on the West Coast, just ping them, "Hey, when you're out here, let me know if you get some time.
(50:01):
I'd love to just chat with you and we could go grab some coffee or something and just do that for a few minutes." But that relationship that you could build and the knowledge you could gain really pays dividends down the road.
Guest: Josette Ferrer (50:12):
Yeah. I think that it's a good point where I think sometimes people are afraid to ask about things. And I think I've found that with a lot of the relationship that you developed, people can be so giving and kind. Where a couple of instances I've reached out to people and same kind of reaction where they've been willing to make the introduction or something along those lines just because you've developed a long-term relationship and there's that history and it's wonderful. It's good karma. I kind of think of it as good karma all the way around with developing these relationships. At the
Host: Paul Barnhurst (50:48):
End of the day, we're all humans and people want to make connections. So the very worst that could happen is they say no, but there's a high chance they're going to say yes. Or if they say no, they're usually going to have a good reason. Very few people are just going to blow you off, especially if you're an employee within a company or something. So give it a try. Don't be afraid within reason to just put yourself out there.
Co-Host: Glenn Snyder(51:11):
Yeah. And then Manta, in fact, at my current company, Riveron, I got to meet the CEO a couple weeks ago. He was out in the Bay Area. I had no interaction with him going up to that point. And I went over and I introduced myself to him and he knew exactly who I was. Ironically, Paul, because he's seen the postings that we've done on the podcast and stuff. And he's like, "Oh, you're not. "o what? God, you're kidding me. And so you never know what these people are seeing. And he's a really just down-to-earth guy and everything. And I had a great time just chatting with him just for a few minutes, but I walked away thinking, "Wow, CEO knows who I am," kind of thing. So you never know if you don't put yourself out there, you're never going to have those kind of experiences.
(51:57):
So Jose, as we're wrapping things up here, final thoughts or pieces of advice, what you'd want to leave the audience with?
Guest: Josette Ferrer (52:05):
Oh, probably, let me think about that. There's probably a couple things in what I've talked about. Clearly start early. Start networking before you need it. Think about my sad opening office party story. I think especially for folks in FP&A, the people down the hall in the other groups that you're working with, they are your future network. Take time to get to know them. Take the people in ops out to lunch after they provide you inputs for your forecast. Do the same with sales and marketing or whatever as a thank you. And then that will help you with future forecasts as you get to know them and you can really start asking them the questions that are important for what you need to do. And then I think probably the other thing that we covered is you don't need a title to be able to give stuff.
(52:51):
So that whole go - giver mentality that Paul mentioned, offer to help people send restaurant recommendations, people remember folks who did something for them. So I think those are probably the three things. There's probably more, but those are the things that I think stuck with me.
Co-Host: Glenn Snyder(53:07):
I think they're great. I mean, I would add to that of help other people. Go in there with a mentality of helping other people, not trying to get them to help you. I mean, there are times that, yes, you're going to need help and you might initially say, "You know what? I could use your help on something," but think about how you can also return the favour to them because the more you make it a two-way street, the better the relationship will be.
Josette (53:31):
That's that go - giver mentality. Definitely read that book. If you haven't gotten that in the Never Eat Alone. Those were super helpful looks for me is I was figuring out the whole networking thing.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (53:41):
I think you guys summarised what my closing thoughts would be, but it says, remember, networking is not a transactional event. Find ways to give, make it relationships. If you give more and you focus more on giving than receiving, it will come back to you. I can guarantee you that will happen over time. So the more you can add value, and even if you're young in your career, don't think you can't ad value. Co-Host: Glenn Snyder shared the example of the CFO. He appreciated being able to connect with an employee. And Co-Host: Glenn Snyder learned a tonne from that, but I guarantee you that CFO took something away as well. Just because you may not have the knowledge doesn't mean you can't add value. And I think that's important to remember.
Guest: Josette Ferrer (54:24):
Yeah, you don't need that title, right? For sure.
Co-Host: Glenn Snyder(54:26):
Paul, just to follow up on that, when I was having that lunch with the CFO and he had asked me a question, I was working at such a lower level into the data that he doesn't normally see as CFO that he told me afterwards. I had not thought of it in that way. And looking at that information is really interesting. So you're right, he did get something out of the conversation that I was bringing to the table.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (54:49):
Not surprised. Alrighty. Well, I think this is probably a good place to wrap up here. Jose, thank you for joining us. Really enjoyed the conversation.
Guest: Josette Ferrer (54:58):
This was fun. Thank you guys.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (55:00):
Yeah, no, thank you. And we encourage anyone out there that's listening, take those opportunities to network. I'm sure if you send a note to any of us, we'll respond. So we'll put that offer out there. And thank you again for listening to the episode. And Jose, thanks for joining us, Glenn. Always fun to co-host with you.
Guest: Josette Ferrer (55:18):
Thanks again guys. Everybody have a great day.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (55:21):
That's it for today's episode of FP&A Unlocked. That's it for today's episode of FP&A Unlocked. If you enjoy FP&A Unlocked, please take a moment to leave a five-star rating and review. It's the best way to support the FP&A guy and help more FP&A professionals discover the show. Remember, you can earn CPE credit for this episode by visiting earmarkcpe.com, downloading the app and completing the quiz. If you need continuing education credits for the FPAC certification, complete the quiz and reach out to me directly. Thanks for listening. I'm Paul Barnhurst, the FP&A guy, and I'll see you next time.