AI Governance for CFOs to Control Board Risk and Lead Strategic Transformation with Shannon Nash
In this episode of Future Finance, host Paul Barnhurst is joined by Glenn Hopper and special guest Shannon Nash to explore how AI is transforming the role of finance leaders and boardrooms. The conversation dives into AI adoption, governance, and the shift from traditional finance responsibilities to more strategic, decision-driven roles.
Shannon Nash is a global C-suite leader, CPA, attorney, and board director with over 30 years of experience across finance, technology, and governance. She is a Partner at Alpha AI, where she helps organizations strengthen AI governance and strategic decision-making. Shannon has served as CFO at companies like Wing, Reputation.com, and Inside Source, and currently sits on multiple boards, including SoFi Bank and NetScout Systems.
In this episode, you will discover:
Why finance professionals must continuously retool in the age of AI
How AI is changing the role of CFOs and decision-making
The importance of AI governance at the board level
How to manage AI investment alongside “AI sprawl.”
What key questions boards should be asking about AI
AI is rapidly evolving from a tool that supports workflows to one that actively drives decisions. As Shannon highlights, this shift requires stronger governance, better alignment between leadership and operations, and a proactive approach from both CFOs and boards. The future of finance will belong to those who can balance innovation with control and strategy with execution.
Future Finance is sponsored by QFlow.ai, the strategic finance platform solving the toughest part of planning and analysis: B2B revenue. Align sales, marketing, and finance, speed up decision-making, and lock in accountability with QFlow.ai.
Stay tuned for a deeper understanding of how AI is shaping the future of finance and what it means for businesses and individuals alike.
Follow Shannon:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shannonknash/
Podcast: https://www.noboxesjustverses.com/
Follow Glenn:
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/gbhopperiii
Follow Paul:
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/thefpandaguy
Follow QFlow.AI:
Website - https://bit.ly/4i1Ekjg
In Today’s Episode:
[00:00] – Trailer
[02:37] – Shannon Nash Background
[04:53] – Career Journey & Non-Linearity
[09:00] – Finance Leaders & Operations Mindset
[11:44] – AI & Alpha AI
[17:47] – AI Across Companies
[24:32] – AI Governance & Board Questions
[31:31] – AI in Decision-Making
[35:26] – Shannon’s Podcast
[42:22] – AI Questions & Closing
Full Show Transcript:
Host: Paul Barnhurst (00:54):
Welcome to another episode of Future Finance. I'm Paul Barnhurst, the FP&A Guy, and I'm thrilled to be here with my cohost Glenn Hopper, as some people call him. How are you doing, Glenn?
Co-Host: Glenn Hopper (01:47):
I'm doing great. I'm a little concerned. We have three podcasters in one room here. I don't know, we could end up, this could be a seven-hour episode. I think if we all get to just run with it
Host: Paul Barnhurst (01:57):
Seven hours. There might be one person who had listened to the whole thing,
Co-Host: Glenn Hopper (02:00):
Get out there competing with Lex Friedman or whatever on the long form podcast.
Guest: Shannon Nash (02:04):
That person would be my mother, just so you know.
Co-Host: Glenn Hopper (02:07):
So our guest this week is Shannon Nash, and I met Shannon through, I think through the CFO Leadership Council. She's been on FP&A today with me and we have a lot of mutual acquaintances and a lot of the same, Shannon, can I call 'em nerd hobbies and interests that we both shared. I'll introduce Shannon. We were talking before the show about the things we pretend to be. So Shannon's one of those guests who has more credentials and background that makes Paul, you and I both feel like maybe we're pretenders. Sometimes
Host: Paul Barnhurst (02:36):
I feel like a pretender every day so it doesn't take her background all the way.
Co-Host: Glenn Hopper (02:39):
Shannon Nash is a global C-suite leader, Qualified Financial Expert, attorney, and CPA with more than 30 years of experience across technology, finance, and governance. She currently serves as a Partner at Alpha AI, where she helps boards and executive teams strengthen AI governance, risk oversight, and strategic decision-making. Shannon also serves as an independent director for NetScout Systems, SoFi Bank (Compensation Chair), and Lazy Dog Restaurants (Audit Chair). Previously, she was CFO of Wing, an Alphabet company and autonomous drone delivery business, where she led global finance, operations, and partnerships. Her career also includes CFO roles at Reputation.com and Inside Source, and senior finance leadership at Amgen and Cumulus Media. She began her career at KPMG and Cooley LLP. She is also the creator of the top-ranked leadership podcast No Boxes: Just Verses and an award-winning film producer (OnBoard, Colored My Mind). She holds a BS and JD from the University of Virginia. Shannon, welcome to Future Finance.
Guest: Shannon Nash (03:43):
I love your intro. Can I have that? I'm going to get a recording of it and just use it. Yeah,
Co-Host: Glenn Hopper (03:49):
I'm going
Guest: Shannon Nash (03:49):
To be your
Co-Host: Glenn Hopper (03:49):
Hype. Just bring me around to
Guest: Shannon Nash (03:51):
Conferences
Co-Host: Glenn Hopper (03:51):
And I'll do ladies and gentlemen,
Guest: Shannon Nash (03:56):
That would be awesome.
Co-Host: Glenn Hopper (03:56):
Out of the Bay Area. We've got
Guest: Shannon Nash (03:58):
Out of the bay. I'll take it.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (04:01):
Take it. I wonder what she does in her spare time. There wasn't much on that intro there.
Co-Host: Glenn Hopper (04:06):
It didn't sound like there's much spare time in there.
Guest: Shannon Nash (04:09):
I've shared many times. I think I've shared with you before. I do Dance Fitness, Zumba. Single, single double. Yeah, I'm an instructor.
Co-Host: Glenn Hopper (04:18):
Oh, that's awesome. I didn't know you were an instructor, I knew you did it, but yeah, you can get Paul and I into a class at some point.
Guest: Shannon Nash (04:24):
Finance Zumba
Co-Host: Glenn Hopper (04:25):
Class, run else off
Guest: Shannon Nash (04:27):
There.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (04:27):
Yeah, finance, leadership, Zumba class. I like it. You
Guest: Shannon Nash (04:30):
Like it? Let's do it.
Co-Host: Glenn Hopper (04:32):
We'll talk about Zumba more later I guess. But the CPA and attorney, the CFO role from media production to the Alphabet moonshot factory and now you're at public company boards for SoFi and NetScout. I guess walk us through that journey in the combination of finance and law and sort of what brought you to this point where you are today.
Guest: Shannon Nash (04:53):
Well thank you folks for having me on the show. It is super cool to be here with you. I hope we do nerd out a little bit. That would be fun. But I mentor a lot of people and I talk to a lot of younger folks in their career and I point out that these careers are not linear. They have lots of twists and turns and I'm certainly an example of lots of twists and turns. Look, I went to school to be a tax lawyer basically. Well, I started in accounting in tax and I really wanted to work your way up a big eight. At the time it was eight accounting firms. Then I'd always wanted to go to law school and had a lot of mentors and my father was a lawyer, et cetera that said, well no, if you combine that with the accounting, you'll be kind of unstoppable if you will.
(05:37):
And it was just the right timing in what was going on in the economy for me to go to grad school quite frankly and continue my education so that by the time I got out and I looked at going to the big accounting firms, it was a different pathway for me. I had two degrees now that basically means they had to pay me more money, pay more rent. So I was excited about, I thought that was just going to be my life and my career trajectory and I've worked my way up the ranks, whether it be an accounting firm or a law firm, I'd be a partner and that would be the end of the story. But life, I have a saying that says life, be life. And so got married and married a gentleman who was a submarine officer in the United States Navy. And that equals like you move and moving means, especially when you have credentials, you have to take new exams in different states and stuff.
(06:27):
That's like a lot. And so I had to kind of decide what was I going to do with my life and eventually I wind up leaving professional services like these big companies that you mentioned and going in-house to an actual company. That company was Amgen. And that really, when you go into business and industry, it really just changed how I thought about what career options were because then I started seeing people who had backgrounds in let's say a county, but they were doing totally different things like B development. I didn't even know what that was coming out of of undergrad in law school. So that's what kind of changed the trajectory of what I started doing because I went into a company and then got opportunities to do other jobs that weren't necessarily the typical jobs for somebody. With a background like mine, you get exposure to the whole business, you get exposure to marketing, get exposure to go to market, you get exposure to hr, all kinds of things.
(07:23):
And so what I like to say is I got exposure to so many things that I became an operator, if you will, and becoming an operator allowed me to be able to go to other companies and take those skill sets, great training in terms of the legal and the accounting and the finance training and really kind of use that to help companies scale and go to market if you will. And so I got my first CFO, you mentioned it, COO role with a company called Insight Source, but that was years of doing all kinds of different things besides just practising law and doing finance. And so it looks like it was all planned because all those things help you to the next thing and then eventually you get on a public company board. And that was always the plan, but it was actually, what I like to tell people is, and people I mentor is it was being open to do new things, being open to stretch myself and do things that maybe weren't part of the plan the first time I had to lead an HR team. That was never part of my plan when I went to school. But man did I learn a lot about managing people, which is a huge part of being a leader because I took that assignment if you'll, when I was in a company.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (08:38):
I love the part you said of being willing to take different assignments. Life as you said is definitely not linear. It used to be you lean the ladder against the wall and you climbed it. In the old days, a lot of people thought that we had the same company for 30 years. And today not only do we switch companies multiple times, most people switch careers multiple times. That's
Guest: Shannon Nash (08:59):
Right.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (09:00):
And so what you mentioned I think is a good way to sum it up because if you define it as operations, it's not necessarily switching careers, it's learning different parts of how to operate a business and they all kind of come together, which
Guest: Shannon Nash (09:11):
I think makes you a better finance leader because if you actually, I remember you guys, one of my first things at being a company like Amgen, one of the first things they did is they had you shadow the sales rep. And I remember at the time thinking, why would I need to do that? I'm in a finance function and legal function. Why would I actually need to see what the sales rep does to sell our product? It was brilliant. If you understand the business, how the business makes money, how the business operates, you actually are a better finance leader. You understand the motion of going to market and winning.
Co-Host: Glenn Hopper (09:52):
And our friend Jack Cola says the CFO, you used to be able to be a mile deep and kind of an inch wide in the old mode of A CFO and now you have to have all that experience. So a hundred percent. And Paul, you talked about throwing the ladder against the wall and climbing it up. I think now we're out here doing parkour to get up the corporate ladder.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (10:15):
There's a lot of truth to that, but I love that you emphasise the operations. One of the biggest things I say to people that I talk to or share is one of the best ways you can be good at finance is learning the business, really understanding how it operates. I know if I went back into an FP&A role today, I would be much better for having run my own business for four years and I would be better for, I started in operations and switched to an FP&A role and the experiences I gained were invaluable. And so I completely agree with you. I couldn't agree more, Shannon, that it helps a lot and that the best finance people are operations people at heart who understand finance or you could say finance people who understand operations really well, but if they don't understand operations and they just understand finance, it's really hard to have an impact. That's
Guest: Shannon Nash (11:05):
Right. To be strategic, and I'm sure we'll get into it in this day and age, you have to be strategic because the routine things that we used to be responsible for AI is doing.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (11:17):
Wait, you mean AI is doing more these days? I think I've heard of that. There's a few tools out there, if I remember right, a few hundred thousand I think. So you're now a partner at Alpha, which is focused entirely on ai. So that was a nice transition there. AI and governance, AI governance for boards and executives. So what pulled you in that direction? How did you end up there and what is Alpha trying to solve?
Guest: Shannon Nash (11:44):
Yeah, I mean I think that you have to be living under a rock not to know that whatever you are doing in your current role, you need to continue to retool yourself because AI is forcing that. And so I was no exception, was really just trying to figure out how is AI going to impact both my job as an operator but also as a board member. And so I started going to, alpha was founded a couple years ago by this gentleman by the name of Stephen Wolf Pereira. And I started going to different forums and sessions that he was speaking at and then a couple that he put on. And one of the things that intrigued me was I knew I was doing a lot of discussions about ai, but sometimes it felt like people around me weren't talking, didn't see as much as I saw, weren't talking about it as much.
(12:33):
And what we found, especially in the last year is that 70 to 80% of all companies now are at least using AI in one function. Most are probably using it in multiple functions. Most companies are, but only about 14% of those companies, they're at the board level. Were they discussing AI at every meeting? So that's a huge disconnect. You're using something but it's not making the board agendas. And so kind of started seeing that gap myself, it's gotten better, but last year in particular, it seemed like it was just this huge gap between what was happening in the business and what was being discussed. And so when you think about the fact that boards meet quarterly, but this AI development cycles and companies, I mean you think about an AI sprint in a department or a tool that's like a four to eight week sprint, it's pretty quick.
(13:26):
And so there seems to be a little bit of a disconnect. And so what made me decide to want to join Alpha and really help be part of the solution was that we saw that there was a gap for AI governance for actual board directors. And so ai, so Alpha is a company that is doing AI governance for boards and C-suite by people who are actually operators. We're not consultants, we are actually people who sit on boards who are C-suite executives. So it's kind of for us by us if you will. And we're kind of trying to solve some of these issues together. And so Alpha exists and kind of has four quadrants. We have an institute where we do a lot of research and frameworks and certifications. We have a council where members actually get together and really do the best kind of best practising and peer relationships together.
(14:21):
We'd an alpha board brief, which is a public facing part of Alpha where we're educating the public about what's going on in AI governance, and then we have our advisory services where we go in with specific companies and teams and really help them think about their AI governance and their frameworks and melding that with how management is really deploying AI company wide. So that's what Alpha is trying to solve and that's what Alpha is doing. I think about it like this 20 23, 20 24 AI in particular was I call 'em talkers. That was like AI is a certain, and it's like talking, talking, talking. That's what it's really good at AI today and certainly where I think where it's going to even get better this year and next. AI is a doer. AI can make decisions, AI can actually book the flight for you. And so as we're moving on that pathway, the governance piece of this and the frameworks are going to need to develop quickly. And so that's some of the stuff that Alpha is working on.
Co-Host: Glenn Hopper (15:32):
I got to say thank you Paul for teeing up the, we'll call this Glen's selfish section of the show. You teed it up perfectly and I'm welcome.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (15:42):
Do we have a sponsor for this section, Glen, or should we get one,
Co-Host: Glenn Hopper (15:45):
Get one. My mom will be there. This is interesting to me thinking about your background and that you're talking to the boards and executives. Now I'm in my other life when I'm not in front of a microphone, I'm helping companies usually through the office of the CFO, but do AI implementations. And it's interesting when you come in and you can get the whole finance team fired up about some kind of automation, some kind of analytics, some kind of generative AI tool that you're going to bring in, but they always sort of bump up against friction if you don't bring in say the CIO first and have tech there from the beginning. And I think there's so much confusion because people who their domain expertise is not around ai, it's around finance or law or whatever the department is. There's this impasse that you get to and because of the nature of the different companies, so you've run finance at wing where AI was core to the product companies where AI's embedded in the platform like reputation and companies where AI isn't really part of the business model at all inside source. And I'm just trying to put myself in because as those of us who are sort of out on the bleeding edge of AI usage, we just sort of think everybody is right here where we are. But from this CFO chair,
Host: Paul Barnhurst (17:19):
No, Glenn, I can promise you you're unique.
Co-Host: Glenn Hopper (17:24):
I'm unique in quite a few ways. None of 'em good. From the CFO chair, how does the finance function look inside, say that AI native company versus, I don't know, should I say traditional company at this point, but I feel like there's a gap that people who haven't been in the AI space for a long time have to jump through. So what's your take on that?
Guest: Shannon Nash (17:47):
Well, a couple things. I think it's a spectrum in terms of like you just said, of where people are on their AI journey, but the truth of the matter is every company is going to have to grapple with ai period. Whether it's thinking about generating revenue, improving decision making, being more efficient, like every single company I serve on three completely different types of boards and what I can tell you, two of them are public companies and one is a private company and what I can tell you is that all of them deal with AI and some form or fashion, some deal with AI as part of their product offering versus some they're dealing with AI in making their product offering more sticky, more better. But they're all dealing with ai. They're just on different parts of the journey as to how deeply they're dealing with it.
(18:43):
And so all CFOs, whether if you are in a traditional tank design, source manufacturing logistics business that CFO has already, I'm sure I haven't spoken to him, but I'm sure he's been thinking about AI and manufacturing and how they can actually, when you talk about a low margin business, every little bit of efficient you can eek out of the process is money. So I'm sure he's literally eating, drinking, waking up all day at night thinking about how he's putting AI into that process because the margins are so small. What I say to CFOs that I speak to is really it is about understanding in this AI driven environment, understanding these new type of ways to think about cost and cogs and computer infrastructure and model training and data pipelines. So they got to get proficient with that, but then they also have to think about, I like to say two things. There's the AI sprawl that every business is going to deal with, which is everybody wants a tool. You've already, and they've already kind of dealt with this, but I feel like with AI it's on steroids. Is it
Host: Paul Barnhurst (20:01):
Kind of SAS sprawl again, just
Guest: Shannon Nash (20:03):
A different name like SAS sprawl again, but it's AI sprawl, same thing, but just on a heightened level, right? Because AI can just do so much. So every CFO is going to have to deal with figuring that out and controlling it and making sure that the spin makes sense. But the systems all talk to each other because everybody doesn't just get an AI tool. You get a tool, you get a tool, it doesn't work that way. But at the same time, the CFO's job is to help unlock the investments that are needed that will drive the product, that will drive the service, that will make the company more competitive by using ai. So they got to balance the sprawl with the fact fact that there's investment needed and where should that investment be. And so what an exciting time to be A CFO, quite frankly to me because the pace of how those decisions are being made, I dare say we haven't felt that in our career, not like this.
Co-Host: Glenn Hopper (21:06):
A hundred percent. A hundred percent, yeah. It's funny that the different ones you talk to, there are quite a few and more and more than I've been preaching the gospel of AI for a couple of years now and there are more and more, but there are still, I've talked to a CFO of a big enterprise company the other day that basically the whole mood that I was getting from him was, and I thought, are you going to be the guy who said rock and roll is a fad,
Guest: Shannon Nash (21:35):
Right? And does he have his hand really on the pulse on what folks are doing in the company? That
Co-Host: Glenn Hopper (21:42):
Was part of it. Yeah. All of his lieutenants very excited about where this is going. And with him it was they can use chat. GPT
Guest: Shannon Nash (21:53):
We're past chat GPT. And that's just the reality of it. That's the search engine for all practical purposes. The AI tooling this, the agen AI tooling right now is literally at the point where it's a doer, it's making decisions, it's changing entire workflows. And so look, I think most people realise that. I will say I feel like most people do realise that just where are they on their, that's why I call it a spectrum. Where are they on their journey? I think that varies.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (22:23):
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(23:30):
I would agree with you, I think if people are still just using AI as nothing but chat, if they're not asking you to do things, provide summaries of reports, help do tasks, whether it's working in Excel to build whatever it might be, models, right formulas, they're missing the boat if they're not at least thinking about ag agentic or trying it, right? We're just moving so fast, you're going to get left behind. We've gone past phase one. It's no longer telling people, yeah, go try chat GPT and give it a prompt and see what happens. That's 1 0 1 and we've passed 1 0 1 these days. I'm curious, you are on several boards, board seats. What are the questions that you're asking management when AI comes up, what do you feel like most people aren't asking that audit committees should be asking? Because there's a huge governance thing here that we're all trying to figure out, and I think most people are still struggling with, so we'd love some of your thoughts from that board perspective.
Guest: Shannon Nash (24:32):
Well, first of all, the question that I think everybody should be asking is where is AI actually being used enterprise wide? Do we have our hands on how is our organisation using AI across teams? We don't have our hands around that. We got a lot of problems. We need to go back to basics. We kind of hand in hand with that question is who owns the governance? Once I know where it is, I've done my inventory. If I'm on this team, how did I just have this AI tool? Was there some type of process for me to bring it in? Have I been working with legal? Have I been working with the CTO and the ciso, et cetera? So what I'm seeing a lot of companies do, and Glenn I'd love your take on this, but I'm seeing a lot of centres of AI excellence or cross cross-functional teams where the areas I listed the chief data officer, legal risk, CTO, finding all these people are on a joint committee so that they can because so massive, so they can know both where AI is being used, but we can also agree on a standard set of rules or how it's being used, when is it in the sandbox, when is it available, enterprise wide, et cetera, et cetera.
(26:00):
I'm seeing a lot of that to solve that issue. I don't know, Glenn, are you seeing that as well?
Co-Host: Glenn Hopper (26:06):
This is, as you were describing all that, I've talked to a lot of ai, circle of excellence people, VP of ai, head of ai, I don't quite get is a lot of them, and this would include at big four firms. This would include at enterprise, at mid-cap companies, a lot of people who take that head of AI role, they might come from it, they might come from operations or they might the case of a public accounting company. They might come from an accounting background. And that's not to say these people can't understand and change with the times and understand AI and how to use it. What I don't get is I've never talked to a head of AI who has a background in data science or machine learning engineer. I know there's a difference between being an engineer and being a strategic, I'm not going to dog engineers aspirationally.
(27:13):
I'd love to be an engineer, but I just don't, if you don't have that deeper level of understanding of systems and technology and data science, data governance and all the components of it, how are you able to make informed decisions about how and when to deploy AI and how to trust? And we can all learn, I don't want to slam anyone, but I think we were talking about that gap earlier within CFOs, but I think even within companies it is, if there is a new role that becomes the chief AI officer, I don't know that it needs a C-suite level, but whatever, whoever the head of AI is, they need to understand more than just, Hey, I'm a pretty good prompt engineer. I can use these tools that are out there because like we said, it's gone beyond just using chat GPT. It is how are we integrating AI into our systems and how do we know when to trust it and all that. So I am seeing it, but I'm also, there's a lot of a jagged frontier with the technology itself and with how companies are leading it.
Guest: Shannon Nash (28:20):
Which leads back to what you guys asked me. Some of the questions that board members are asking, we really want to understand, again, it's got to be a wider approach. Yes, you may have a chief ai, blah blah blah, but it's also that role and that group has to really have tentacles in many places in the company. And to your point, where's legal at the table? Where's privacy at the table for example? That's where I think 2026, you're going to actually see a lot more movement in that. I think companies are now kind of saying, oh my gosh, we got to get our hands around this. And boards are demanding that.
Co-Host: Glenn Hopper (29:06):
Yeah. And with that, I guess more talking about me, Paul knows that's my favourite thing to do is the reason I was late to, I kept you guys waiting for the podcast today. I was meeting with a private equity firm and I know with you 25 plus years of transactions from user testing, Tooma, Bravo and the other deals that you've seen, I think there's a huge opportunity, and this is a microcosm of what I look at every day, and Paul, you and I talked about this over the weekend I think, but due diligence, valuation models, deal execution, all the work that goes into due diligence and there is a lot of automation that can happen. But also just like with every other AI project, we still want that HITL, the human in the loop where a human has a hand on the wheel. Are you our boards and executives talking about that? Or is it more just we want to do some AI or how do you advise when they talk about how to keep a human in the loop here because there's so much automation, but at the same time, how much can you trust it? What do you need? And like you said, AI can do more and more, but where do you put that gate in? Let me stop you from booking this flight because I didn't want to go to Argentina this week. Actually, Argentina this week might be kind nice, but
Host: Paul Barnhurst (30:25):
I want to go to Argentina. I dunno what you're talking about clin.
Guest: Shannon Nash (30:27):
Yeah, too. I think we're still in beginning innings when it comes to what you were talking about. I think that there's less, AI is hallucinating going on because it's gotten not only a lot better, it gets better every day. Something new happens every day. So I think there's a lot less conversations about that and a lot more about what are going to be the guardrails and what are going to be the judgement and decision-making kind of areas that AI will do. And we are okay with it versus you still need a human to do. And I think that's still being debated when I think about, you mentioned you're talking to a PE firm and deal making and I've had to do a fair amount of that in my career. So I think AI is going to be, not going to be, but is very good at research and market intelligence and gathering information and analysing data in a really quick way and running, doing scenario planning for me really quickly.
(31:31):
And for the most part it's right. And I think that's great because then I can get to spending more time on decision making. But I also think there will be a day not too far in the distant future where there will be some of the decisions will be made by AI in some of these deals. And the question just is how much of the decisions will be made? Because I do believe that a big part of deal making kind of that esoteric piece of it is the relationships is the culture is all these things you can't actually put a definition on as to why one deal happens over another that's not just based off of the numbers, it's based off of, we went to dinner with their management team and we really liked them. I don't know how you put a AI score on. Shannon liked Glen or Shannon didn't like Glen. How do you score that? I dunno. That's still human.
Co-Host: Glenn Hopper (32:34):
Yeah, it's funny, as you were saying all that, I was thinking about the Paramount Netflix Warner deal that went through and it's like either one of you was going to overpay for this. I don't think AI would've wanted anyone to make this purchase,
Guest: Shannon Nash (32:47):
Right? That's like the field, that's like the gut, that's like the, I'll be accountable for it because we're going to win. That's a great example.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (32:56):
How many deals go away if AI's the final say where it's like you're way overpaying? No, no, no, no. Okay. Maybe. No, no, no.
Guest: Shannon Nash (33:06):
Some will look to your point, some will go away. They won't pass the next level that a human's going to get involved. AI is just going to nix it because it's just on paper supposedly, right? Such a bad deal on paper. So that will happen, I believe.
Co-Host: Glenn Hopper (33:21):
And Shannon, that reminds me of, and you may be more familiar with the study than I am with your legal background, but the study that was judges giving out harsher sentences right before lunch because they're hungry and they're hangry at that point or whatever. Yeah, I did see that. We talk about bias in ai, but that is a real human bias. But human decision making is not flawless. And I'm certainly not saying we abdicate all these decisions to AI right now, but it is something to think about, whether it's an m and a deal or a sentencing situation,
Host: Paul Barnhurst (33:54):
M and a was the final sign off the reality. You might have a lot more deals to make money. It's hard to say because most deals aren't accretive to the acquirer, right? Less than 20% are, I think it's a pretty low number depending on what study you look at. And so if you can remove all that bias, you would think AI could do a better job. Now it's not that simple. We all know that, but it's still interesting to think about.
Guest: Shannon Nash (34:19):
Well it is interesting because it's all based off of what did you plug into the AI as success factors, right? Because just because to your point, well, was this really accretive to the business? Maybe it wasn't accretive to the business, but you actually put a competitor out of business that five years down the road would've made it harder for you to be successful. So there's all these things that go into it that I just think that yeah, you can give AI those variables, but you still need the human who. And sometimes people just buy companies, as you guys know, I mean I live in Silicon Valley, sometimes these things just happen because of just bravado, right?
Co-Host: Glenn Hopper (35:01):
Yeah. Oh yeah. They want somebody to talk about at the golf course,
Host: Paul Barnhurst (35:03):
So to
Co-Host: Glenn Hopper (35:04):
Speak,
Guest: Shannon Nash (35:06):
Just saying sometimes they do. And I don't think AI is going to stop that.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (35:10):
I agree. It'll be interesting to watch how it plays out. So we're going to move here to a minute where we have a couple AI generated questions. We'll tell you how that works in a second. But before we do that, you're a podcast host. Tell us about your podcast. No boxes, just
Guest: Shannon Nash (35:26):
I feel like you guys should come on. I feel like you guys should come on as a team. I've done this when I've interviewed two people. So my podcast is all about following inspiring people and their journeys, but not just you talking about I went to school, then I did this and I did that. I take five lessons or five areas of your journey and we pair that with the song that most reflects that period of your journey. So what we end with is a leadership playlist of your journey in song. We put it on Spotify and it truly is a way to tell your story in a way that I feel like is very memorable because music unifies people, right? Regardless. Anytime you see, I'll never forget, I saw people doing YMCA that I never thought would know the song like that. And I went, huh, if we could just be in a crowd and all doing YMCA and getting along music is a unifier. It's a huge unifier. And I can tell you I've interviewed everybody from Tech CEOs to Oscar winners, right? Just inspiring people and they all have eclectic, beautiful music to share about their journey. So I'm thinking you guys should do it.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (36:50):
I'm thinking two themes here. It's either five times staying alive or five different songs from weird Al.
Guest: Shannon Nash (36:59):
Oh gosh, I can only name one I think Eat it.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (37:03):
I have a couple albums. My wife loves him so I do two. Oh
Guest: Shannon Nash (37:06):
My, you only know that one. Okay,
Host: Paul Barnhurst (37:08):
We could do white and nerdy that would fit in there somewhere. Making fun of Gangster's Paradise. Let's see. Party in the CIAI could call it with the lot.
Guest: Shannon Nash (37:17):
Well, there's that many. See what I mean? You got a lot of them. That could be interesting to somebody. I don't know.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (37:24):
You never know. Alright,
Guest: Shannon Nash (37:26):
You never know. But that's the podcast. No boxes just versus you guys have an open invitation to come on.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (37:32):
We appreciate that Glenn. And I'll have to come up with our song list.
Co-Host: Glenn Hopper (37:36):
I know, I know. I'm putting it together right now.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (37:40):
Well, I'm looking forward to seeing it. Maybe we'll have Spotify write the songs for or not. Spotify, one of these new tools. Just write the songs for us. We'll give it our life story.
Guest: Shannon Nash (37:48):
Oh yeah, yeah. Sono Soo I think is that, yes, I
Host: Paul Barnhurst (37:52):
Was trying to think of the name of it.
Guest: Shannon Nash (37:53):
It wasn't Suno because my theme song was written on Suno by my friend tha
Host: Paul Barnhurst (37:58):
We could do a little bit of weird Alan Sono. There we go. I'm going to guess we'll be the only guest with that combination.
Guest: Shannon Nash (38:05):
You will be.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (38:07):
She's like, there's not even a doubt here. There's
Guest: Shannon Nash (38:09):
No doubt.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (38:09):
Alright, so what we have here is we had AI create 25 questions based on the questions we asked you and your presence online. And so we use different ais every week. Glenn did this one. So the question, we each use our own prompts and I work one way, Glen works another. So there's 25 questions. You have two options, either the machine, I can use the random number generator to pick a number between one and 25. Or we can do human in the loop and you can pick the number between one and 25.
Guest: Shannon Nash (38:40):
I'll pick. Let's do 22.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (38:42):
22. And I haven't read these yet, so we'll see what we got. Wing was born inside X, the moonshot factory. What's the weirdest thing you saw in that building that you're allowed to talk about? Don't ask how they come up with these questions.
Guest: Shannon Nash (38:59):
Next question.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (39:00):
All right, pick another number
Guest: Shannon Nash (39:01):
Two.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (39:02):
All right. Opposite direction. See what we got. You sat on audit committees and chaired one. What's the most surprisingly mundane thing that eats up board meeting time that nobody outside a boardroom would guess
Guest: Shannon Nash (39:16):
That's hard. Mundane. I'm actually a little stumped by that one. What would I say is a mundane activity?
Co-Host: Glenn Hopper (39:24):
Calling role is that,
Guest: Shannon Nash (39:28):
But I feel like everybody, it's so quick, mundane. Well, I'm getting stumped by these questions because who would be mundane? I chair audit committee. But
Host: Paul Barnhurst (39:41):
Here I'll give you one. I know you should be able to answer. Thank you. If not, I give up and we turn it over to Glen. All right. I'm just going to pick one here. So we're going human in the loop. You're a CPA and attorney. When you're at a dinner party, which one do you lead with and does it change depending on the crowd?
Guest: Shannon Nash (40:00):
Yes, it absolutely changes depending on the crowd because for some people you can just tell that the conversation will be way easier. Easier. It's just a real quick high level like, hi, how are you? If you just say, oh, I'm an attorney, just say it and the conversation's kind of over. So definitely if it's people care about titles in particular, if it's a crowd like that, it's easy to just say that. If it's a crowd where it's more of a conversation and people getting to know you and it's less transactional, I'll put it to you that way. I actually will start with, I don't even know if I say CPA, an attorney, what I might say is I'm in findings and then I will explain more what that means. So they get all of that in the conversation. But definitely it has to be one where I feel like I'm getting to know the person. They're getting to know me. Otherwise, I think if it's just a quick, because somebody needs a title, just say attorney people seem to be comfortable with that. I don't know what that means.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (41:01):
I can see that the quick and easy is just say attorney.
Guest: Shannon Nash (41:03):
Yeah, the quick and easy.
Co-Host: Glenn Hopper (41:05):
That's what I do. And I didn't even go to law school. Hilarious.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (41:09):
I say I'm a wannabe attorney,
Co-Host: Glenn Hopper (41:11):
Esquire. I just call Glenn Hopper, Esquire Quire.
Guest: Shannon Nash (41:14):
You guys are funny. There was one thing that I didn't mention and I want to figure out how you guys can get this in. This is such a great guide. You ask that question about boards and questions. Alpha, we actually have a board governance guide for, so both management and board directors can read it and it's free to the public. It's a public facing document where we a talk about here are the top five or six AI tools out there and here's what you should use them for. So we give 'em a cheat sheet and then we have questions that you should be asking management from a board level based off your role, your committee comp, committee risk committee, audit committee, tech committee, and then the board overall. So it's such a good guide, both I think for people who are serving on boards and for those who report to boards to see these are the type of questions, these are the type of information I should have for my board. And this, if you're on a board, these are the type of things I should be asking. I'm so sorry. I mentioned that free public guide.
Co-Host: Glenn Hopper (42:14):
If you shoot us a link to that, we'll just throw it in the show notes and that way we'll be able to get it out that way.
Guest: Shannon Nash (42:17):
Yeah.
Co-Host: Glenn Hopper (42:17):
You want to go one more AI question?
Guest: Shannon Nash (42:19):
Sure. This is so much fun.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (42:22):
I sent some sarcasm, Glenn, I'm not going to lie.
Co-Host: Glenn Hopper (42:24):
My approach is slightly different because AI created, I just go back and have it say, Pickett's favourite. You've been named one of the most powerful women in accounting. Does that title come with actual powers?
Guest: Shannon Nash (42:37):
Yes, it actually does. I actually can read the future. I'm a fortune teller now. So if you give me a set of financials, have a little rock right here and I rub it and I close my eyes and I can tell you if you're going to meet your bookings goal and if you're going to be able to convert those bookings into revenue, what percentage? I can tell you how you're going to do on gross margins and EBITDA gross. The only thing I can't do right now is I can't actually forecast further than five years out. I'm working on that superpower though.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (43:16):
So the next question that leads to right Glen, is
Co-Host: Glenn Hopper (43:20):
Yeah, forget the software. Oracle. You are an actual Oracle. I love it.
Guest: Shannon Nash (43:24):
Actual Oracle. What I do now, thanks to that power they give me,
Co-Host: Glenn Hopper (43:30):
We appreciate you slumming it with a couple of nut jobs like me and Paul. But it's been a fun episode, so we really appreciate you coming
Guest: Shannon Nash (43:36):
On. Thanks so much fun, guys. Thanks for having me.
Host: Paul Barnhurst (43:38):
Thanks for listening to the Future Finance Show. And thanks to our sponsor, QFlow.ai. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a rating and review on your podcast platform of choice, and may your robot overlords be with you.