The CFI Certification for Finance Professionals to Master Excel and Power Query with Landon & Clarke
In this episode, Paul Barnhurst sits down with Clarke Carter and Landon Cortenbach, two finance professionals who’ve taken different paths into the world of FP&A and both turned to Corporate Finance Institute (CFI) to level up their skills. They discuss why Excel still dominates the finance world, what separates good FP&A from great, and how to pick the right certification to match your career goals. How Clarke used CFI’s FP&A specialization to move from accounting into planning and analysis, and how Landon, a seasoned CFO, turned to CFI’s FMVA program to sharpen his modeling and Excel chops after years in senior roles.
Clarke Carter is a CPA and CMA working as a senior accountant in the healthcare industry. He supports budgeting and planning and has deep experience with Adaptive Insights and Excel modeling. Landon Cortenbach is a veteran CFO and finance executive who has scaled startups and worked with Fortune 50 companies. With a background in accounting, operations, and enterprise tech, Landon’s passion is in financial transformation and continuous learning. He’s a CPA, Six Sigma Green Belt, and a big advocate for real-world financial education.
Expect to Learn:
Why mastering Excel is still foundational in FP&A
The difference between theory and real-world finance training
How Power Query can save you hours every week
What separates effective FP&A teams from the rest
How to choose between certifications like CFA, FMVA, or FPAC
Here are a few quotes from the episode:
"Slow and steady wins. Make time daily to learn, and you’ll be amazed where you end up." - Clarke Carter
"Power BI and Excel together are unstoppable once you know how to use them." - Clarke Carter
"The moment I understood how three-statement models fit together, everything clicked." - Landon Cortenbach
Clarke and Landon bring practical advice, personal stories, and a lot of perspective. If you’re looking to level up in FP&A or just want to hear from two people who’ve learned through doing, this one’s for you. They share what worked, what didn’t, and what they’d tell anyone trying to move forward in finance.
Corporate Finance Institute:
Master real-world finance skills with CFI’s FMVA program to learn financial modeling, valuations, and strategic insights top finance teams use. Get 30% off any plan and take the next step in your career. Explore now at https://corporatefinanceinstitute.com/pricing-FP&A guy/?utm_source=FP&A guy&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=podcast_ads
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LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/landonjcortenbach/
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Earn Your CPE Credit
For CPE credit, please go to earmarkcpe.com, listen to the episode, download the app, answer a few questions, and earn your CPE certification. To earn education credits for the FP&A Certificate, take the quiz on earmark and contact Paul Barnhurst for further details.
In Today’s Episode
[02:18] - Guest Introductions
[06:22] - What Is Great FP&A?
[08:57] - Choosing the CFI Program
[14:20] - Program Impact
[17:19] - Top Skills Learned
[23:42] - Study Advice
[28:07] - Modeling & Excel
[32:16] - Advice about the CFO
[39:13] - Soft Skills for FP&A
[47:17] - Book Recommendation
Full Show Transcript
[00:01:44] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Welcome to FP&A tomorrow, where we delve into the world of financial planning and analysis, examining its current state and future prospects. I'm your host, Paul Barnhurst, and I'll be guiding you through the evolving landscape of FP&A. Each week, we're joined by thought leaders, industry experts, and practitioners who share their insights and experiences, helping us navigate today's complexities and tomorrow's uncertainties. Whether you're a seasoned professional or just starting your journey in FP&A, this show has something for everyone. This week, I'm thrilled to welcome on the show Clarke Carter Clarke, welcome to the show.
[00:02:24] Guest 1: Clarke Carter: Thank you Paul.
[00:02:26] Host: Paul Barnhurst: You're welcome. And I also have Landon Cortenbach with us. Welcome to the show, Landon.
[00:02:31] Guest 2:Landon Cortenbach: Thanks, Paul. Pleasure to be here.
[00:02:33] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah, I'm really excited to have you. So we're going to be talking a little bit today about some of the programs CFI has. Both of these gentlemen have taken different programs and we're willing to speak about their experiences. But before I do that, I want to get a little bit of their background. So we'll start with Landon here. Landon is a distinguished finance executive with over 20 years of experience driving financial transformation, scaling operations and delivering exceptional results across industries including technology, consumer packaged goods, restaurants and professional services. Landon excels at building the people, process and technology infrastructure needed to achieve financial and operational excellence, with a focus on platform roll ups, portfolio companies and private funds seeking to scale efficiently and enhance operating leverage. Throughout his career, Landon has consistently delivered transformative results, including enhancing operational efficiencies, driving revenue growth, expanding margin profiles, and implementing scalable financial systems. He holds a Bachelor's of Business Administration and Accounting from Concordia University, where he was the team captain in baseball and an All-American high school. He is a certified Public Accountant, a Six Sigma Green Belt, an Fmea certification holder and an AWS Certified Cloud Practitioner. A sought after speaker, Landon regularly shares insights on data driven financial innovation and process optimization. Did I miss anything?
[00:04:09] Guest 2:Landon Cortenbach: No you didn't. You did a much better job than I would have.
[00:04:13] Host: Paul Barnhurst: All right. And we'll do the same here for Clarke. So Clarke currently works as a senior accountant within the healthcare industry. His role encompasses tasks associated with a traditional FP&A function, such as analyzing actual results versus budgeted results, and presenting that analysis monthly to corporate leadership. More recently played a supporting role in facilitating the annual budgeting process by organizing cross-functional meetings and leveraging planning tools, including Workday's Adaptive Insights, to build up the annual budget. Clarke holds an active CPA license from the Tennessee State Department of Commerce and Insurance, as well as an CMA certificate from the Institute of Management Accountants. He holds a bachelor's degree in accounting and a master's degree in accountancy from Belmont University. He also created Mandarin Chinese as an undergraduate. Might have to ask him to give us a sentence or two here in a minute. Clarke obtained first place in the Middle Tennessee State University's Chinese Language Writing contest in 2014, and passed level three of the HSC exam that measures proficiency in the Chinese language. All right. I got to ask, how did that come about? You don't strike me as a typical person that would go to college to study Chinese with accounting. So I'm curious, the backstory before we, uh, get into the podcast.
[00:05:36] Guest 1: Clarke Carter: A lot of that is kind of driven by family backgrounds. My family is predominantly from Europe, and there's a lot of French and German influences there. Um, my grandmother was actually born in Paris, 1942, during the German occupation. So Chinese kind of came out of a desire to do something completely different, kind of solving my own and expanding to that area of expertise.
[00:05:59] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Give us a sentence in Chinese. Maybe you know something, a finance sentence, if you can. Something that would try to finance.
[00:06:06] Guest 1: Clarke Carter: Well, zhongwen means I can speak Chinese. Keep it simple for you, Paul.
[00:06:11] Host: Paul Barnhurst: I like it, I won't remember, I remember how to say it, but I like it. You do have to keep it simple. You should talk to me like you would talk to your five year old if you have one. Just so you.
[00:06:20] Guest 1: Clarke Carter: Keep that in mind, Paul.
[00:06:22] Host: Paul Barnhurst: All right. Well, let's jump into the questions we have. So this first one I'm going to ask you, Lambden, when you think of FP&A , what does great FP&A look like to you? How would you describe it for me?
[00:06:33] Guest 2:Landon Cortenbach: Great. FP&A is a function deeply embedded in the operations of a business. And the reason I don't go into great Excel modeling, you know, assumption driven forecasting is because I feel like those are table stakes. I find what separates really great groups is building those partnerships within the business to help drive maximum value for its constituents. And so every time I'm at a company or analyzing the FP&A function, I'm often looking for how embedded they are with the operations of a business and are they looked at as value added business partners?
[00:07:11] Host: Paul Barnhurst: I really like they said what value are they adding to the business? Are they value added business partners? I had a lot of people say, look, the technical stuff is table stakes. Everybody has to have it, which is financial modeling, failed assumptions, you know, analysis, excel. But I've always thought, and I agree very much with you, where you separate is really the operation focus, the being able to partner and drive value from the business and understanding it, not just understanding the numbers. But I'd love your thoughts on this, Clarke. Anything you'd add or any thought you have on it.
[00:07:42] Guest 1: Clarke Carter: I would add probably adjusting the way that we use jargon very commonly in finance, accounting in particular, and kind of condensing that down to a way that any person could understand to tell the story of what's going on in a particular model, a budget, a forecast, making it as accessible to you as it is to everyone else.
[00:08:05] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah, I love what you said there, the jargon. Because. Right. How many times have we been in a meeting where they're like, what are you talking about? Like, you guys can see my hat. Ebitda. I went to the doctor's office and was wearing it the other day, and he just gave me that look like, what in the world was EBITDA? And I thought I was explaining it at a level that he would understand, you know, kind of referencing cash and how it's another way to look at things. And he looked at me and he goes, you're speaking, doctor, to the doctor. Like, you know, way over my head. And I was like, alright, I need to work on that a little bit. So it was that reminder of exactly what you were talking about. Clarke, the importance of making sure we speak the language of our audience, not the language we speak to our counterparts and our, you know, in finance. All right. So I'd love to jump in. First question here around, uh, CFI. We're going to start with Landon, who took the FP&A. I would love to know your reasoning for earning the Fmba. What kind of drove you to take the program?
[00:09:07] Guest 2:Landon Cortenbach: Yeah. It's, I'll have to take you on a quick journey. The majority of my career has been in finance and accounting from 2016 to 2020. I went on a detour where I actually worked in operations and finance. So deploying enterprise tech, SAP, Ariba, Successfactors also standing up a business intelligence function and team. And as I was coming out of that, I relocated to Tennessee looking for my next job. One of the things I really wanted to lean into, because I had my CPA very proficient on the accounting side, was really polishing my skills on the FP&A side. And so I went down the journey of looking at different certifications and training. And looking at CFA didn't really trigger anything for me. And then for whatever reason, I came across CFI and saw their MBA. I took a kind of an introductory course and just fell in love with the way they lay out the curriculum, the way you can go self-paced, um, kind of the accessibility of Fuzing theory to real world application was the thing that I was really drawn to, because the thing I struggle with often is there's a theory of things, but there's no real way to drive how you practically apply that. And that was the thing I felt was the real differentiator for CFI. And so, you know, after the first one, I think I whipped through that thing in two weeks. It was just like, you know, I fell in love and just kind of leaned in and found myself continuously going back to CFI to kind of polish up my modeling skills or my Excel workbook skills. And yeah, it's just been a wonderful, wonderful company to engage with.
[00:10:46] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Great. Sounds like it's been a really good experience for you. And, you know, like to hear that. I appreciate you kind of sharing some of that story. And it sounds like you spent a lot of time in those two weeks if you cranked it out that quick. So that's impressive. Clarke, tell us your story. What was your reason for doing the FP&A specialization, which I know you did from CFI very much.
[00:11:06] Guest 1: Clarke Carter: Both a learning.
[00:11:07] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Experience.
[00:11:07] Guest 1: Clarke Carter: Desire to learn modeling and FP&A skills, as well as a practical component as well in terms of kind of adjusting to the fact that I was going to be called upon to kind of support the budgeting process this past year, and making sure that my skills in both Excel and modeling in general were up to snuff and ready to meet that challenge. And very much kind of to echo what Landon said, always kind of come away from any of Cfi's courses with easily at least one thing that I can integrate into my daily job and kind of bring into the office and add value to help others around the office and build new templates and things of that nature.
[00:11:47] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Great. Makes sense. You'll want to expand your learning into something like. You're starting to do more of a hybrid role where you're doing FP&A, so getting some training makes sense. Totally understand that one. So what I'd like to know, and we'll start with you on this one, Clarke. And then we'll go to London. I'd love to know where there are other programs you considered. What did you all look at, you know. And how did you finally come to the conclusion? Hey, CFI is right for me.
[00:12:10] Guest 1: Clarke Carter: Some other programs. I had looked at Advanced Financial Modeler from FMI as well as AFP's FP&A c credential. Those are the two other ones I can look at. The big draw for me in terms of choosing CFI was just the immediate accessibility of the courses in terms of getting me up to speed very, very quickly in terms of the knowledge and skills that I need to have for those kind of job functions.
[00:12:34] Host: Paul Barnhurst: It makes a lot of sense, right? It's self-study, it's affordable, and if you want something new, you can immediately dive in whenever you want. Cfi is great, I've done AFM. I know the FMI team. I've done the FP&A c. I'm not trying to certify it. And I would say, you know, CFI from just a boot up and get going is easier in the sense of they have, you know, a thousand courses or whatever it is, couple hundred courses there and you pay it and you have it for a year. So I can totally understand that. Landon, you did mention you looked at CFA. What else did you consider or how did you kind of come to your conclusion?
[00:13:06] Guest 2:Landon Cortenbach: Yeah, those were the two biggies. And then, you know, I started with CFA, felt a little heavy for what I needed at the time. And once I landed on CFI, it was one of those things where it just, you know, when something just kind of clicks. And I was like, there's no point in me looking elsewhere if I need to do additional training after this. Fine. but it's much like Clarke said, it was like, you know, kind of just as soon as you log in, you pop open the first course, you look at some of the materials and it just makes pretty logically. Right. And then kind of the self-paced nature, the cost effective price point, like all of the things were just like, yes by me. And start studying now.
[00:13:43] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Now I hear you. And it's funny, you mentioned CFA. I did level one back in 2014, I think, and I just realized I'm like, all right. If I stay in corporate finance, it really doesn't make sense to do level two and three. This isn't the right certification. I think a lot of people do it because, you know, if you don't want a CPA or CMA for a long time, that's what everybody kind of thought was the other option in finance. But it's not really geared toward the traditional corporate finance professional. And today we have so many more options. Not that it's not a great program. I mean, if you earn it, you've put in the time and you've shown you're dedicated, but that doesn't necessarily mean you're going to use it in your daily job. And it's a lot of time to put in. At least that's kind of the conclusion I came to. All right. So you hinted that a little bit of this earlier, Landon, but I'd like to get a little deeper into this. I know you had several senior roles before enrolling in the CFA program, the VA program. So how do you feel like maybe the training helped you advance your career. You said you fell in love with the material and you learned a lot, but maybe talk a little bit of how it helped you when you're in a more senior role. Because typically, you know, you see people earlier in their career taking the program. So I'd love to get your perspective because I think it's a little bit unique to when most people take it.
[00:14:54] Guest 2:Landon Cortenbach: Yeah. You know, as I mentioned, I grew up in more of your traditional accounting, deep accounting, technical accounting, audit and did a little bit of FP&A, but not a ton. Right. And kind of coming out of this operations and technology role, but I was really looking for something that helped me become a bit more well-rounded. From a finance and accounting perspective. Sitting in operations in tech, I was exposed to more like the hidden levers of a business to drive revenue growth or margin expansion. And that was kind of attaching this financial discipline from an FP&A perspective to what I had learned operationally to really round out my broader finance and accounting skill set. And that was kind of the key. There was just, I'll call it addressing a weakness based on, you know, if you were to just binarily look at my resume, heavy accounting, not as much on the finance side, this was really my approach to solving some of those gaps I might have from a skill set perspective.
[00:15:54] Host: Paul Barnhurst: And speaking of that, I'm curious, do you get people asking about it, kind of when they see the resume or you say you wanted to build out, you know, kind of round that out, maybe. What has been the response you get from people who want to see you did the FMBA?
[00:16:05] Guest 2:Landon Cortenbach: You know, I, I have not created or submitted a resume in some time and so I don't get a ton of feedback there, but relatives like the people who have gone through CFI and see the Fmba, it's kind of like, ah, you get it. Like you understand. And then there's other people who don't and they're like, you know, what is this? And I always, you know, I'm probably Anna and Cfi's biggest advocate of life, just go spend the money and do it. It's going to work wonders for your skill set, even if you're not looking to go deep into finance. Even my accounting folks. I'm like, it will teach you excel structure like I have not learned before in a way that is highly digestible, right?
[00:16:42] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yep. When I asked them for a name for the podcast, I think they came back with you immediately. And then I asked for someone in a specialization which is fairly new, and it took a little while to find the right person. So I would imagine you've been, you know, quite vocal with just how quick they responded, because I've done a number of different programs where I've talked to people to evaluate them and help FP&A professionals make that best decision for themselves. And I think yours is one of the quickest turnarounds I got. So, yeah, I think they're a big fan of the way you talk about the program. Right. You want those promoters for sure?
[00:17:15] Guest 2:Landon Cortenbach: Yeah. Anna knows I'm an auto. Yes. Anytime she needs me to, uh, sing the praises of CFI.
[00:17:21] Host: Paul Barnhurst: I love it. So, Clarke, I'd like to get, you know, kind of your thoughts a little different from a question. So you did the CPA, then you also did the CMA, which has some similarities to FP&A . What were some of the differences or things you learned from the FP&A specialization that maybe you didn't learn from the other degrees that have really helped you?
[00:17:41] Guest 1: Clarke Carter: I would say bridging the Excel and modeling gap, and then more specifically, kind of introducing other tools into the mix, specifically within Excel. But power BI as well, in terms of Power Pivot, Power Query items that you would not see coming up through either the CPA licensure or the CMA program in any capacity.
[00:18:03] Host: Paul Barnhurst: No. Thank you for that answer, Clarke. That makes a lot of sense. And I'm a huge fan of Power Query, Power Pivot. You know, the things you can do. When I created a course for one of the programs, I really focused on what I call Modern Excel. Hey, learn Power Query, learn about dynamic arrays, learn about tables. Because I can imagine once you start to learn about Power Query, how much time did it save you on some of your processes?
[00:18:27] Guest 1: Clarke Carter: Good. Several hours at least.
[00:18:30] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah. And see that that's common. And so I think that's great. They have that in there because that's very practical. Some don't have that practical level. And I mean I'm going to guess if I ask both of you over your career, how much of your time have you spent cleaning and preparing data? Take a guess. Clandon. What? Yeah.
[00:18:48] Guest 2:Landon Cortenbach: Like number of hours in total.
[00:18:50] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Oh, just a percentage. Just kind of a ballpark.
[00:18:53] Guest 2:Landon Cortenbach: I mean, probably a good 30 plus percent of, you know, any body of work you're spending 30 to 40% of the time cleaning data, gut checking, the data, completeness, quality, etc..
[00:19:05] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yep. Right. Yeah. I figured you'd be somewhere in that range. What about you, Clarke? What would you estimate it at? Okay, so you're both in that same range, right? I mean, think about that. You know, if you work 2000 hours a year, which I'm guessing you work more than 40 hours a week on average. But we'll do simple math, you know, 40%. That's 800 hours a year, right? Think if you get 10% of that time back, that's two weeks. You don't have to get much out of Power Query. And the reality is you can often get 20, 25, 30%. Now you may have to invest up front. But that's true of anything, right? That's where the learning takes place. So a little bit of a side conversation there. But I'm a huge fan of Power Query so I appreciate that one. I want to ask a question before we get to some of the others we had kind of laid out here. I'd love to know, did you have a favorite course? Was there like one course or module or something that really just resonated with you where it kind of stood out compared to the others? And I'll give you a minute, Landon I could see kind of thinking there you're like, which one is it? Clarke, what was yours?
[00:20:07] Guest 1: Clarke Carter: Probably Duncan Mckean's seven part core section of the FP&A series that I think was really well done and generally brought everything home and full circle. And it was great to see all sections of an FMA model being built up from start to finish, end to end.
[00:20:28] Host: Paul Barnhurst: So was it like a budget model? Is that what you did? You went through and built like a 12 month or couple year or whatever, but a full budget did have like different cost centers and everything. Like how was it a three statement or what was kind of the level of detail? I'm just curious.
[00:20:41] Guest 1: Clarke Carter: broken out into a number of different schedules across different areas for contractors, payroll, uh, fixed assets, depreciation schedules, and then kind of amalgamating them together into a final consolidated output.
[00:20:54] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Okay. No, that's great because yeah, I mean that's a huge having that skill is huge in FP&A for sure. What about you, Landon?
[00:21:01] Guest 2:Landon Cortenbach: Yeah, I'm trying to think, you know, it's been a minute. It was like one of the earlier ones, the intro to the three statement modeling. Right. And I'm not as advanced as Clarke. And so mine. That was the real eye opener and aha moment for me of something that feels intimidating doesn't necessarily have to be there's a logical structure to it all that kind of fits really nicely together. And it was kind of at that moment as I completed that, where I was very motivated to keep going. Right? But it was a lot of the ones that pulled all these pieces together that felt a lot more intimidating to me earlier in my career. That kind of demystified a lot of that that I really loved.
[00:21:38] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Don't you love it when you're learning something and it demystifies or becomes clear to you? Yeah. Because I know I used to have a calculus class and remember half the time I turned to my friend or he turned to me and we'd look at each other and go, I feel stupider for having come to class today because we just left completely confused. You know, you study forever to try to understand it. So I love those moments when something that feels complex really clicks and it all comes together and you're like, I get it. I can keep going. And so that's great. I that was my story of calculus. That's what we used to always say after every, I think, almost every lecture. But I did survive. So all right. So you know, Clarke, what has been the response among your kind of peers and coworkers to have you earned this certification? What kind of questions do you get? You know. How has it been recognized? Just your thoughts in general since you've done it.
[00:22:30] Guest 1: Clarke Carter: It's been a lot of just kind of a barrage of Excel questions, kind of. Once you mentioned CFI in general, there are some folks in my particular neck of the woods who are very familiar with it, and it's a lot of, you know, they might have done 1 or 2 courses in it, but maybe didn't go through a specialization or the full FBA program as Landon did. But there's a lot more in terms of, well, you know, if it would be possible to kind of rework this to make it like this. And how would you kind of modify this file here in terms of making it better for the budget or the forecast? Just a lot of ad hoc stuff that kind of comes up as a result of those conversations.
[00:23:04] Host: Paul Barnhurst: So you're now kind of viewed as that Excel expert. So you get a lot of questions. You know, I can relate. Last year I got, uh, someone nominated me and I got selected as a Microsoft MVP. As soon as someone sees MVP, they think you know everything about Excel. And no, nobody knows everything about Excel. So there are times I get questions like a guy I was trying to help today, and I, I had to think about it for a while. I was trying to do it. If I said, I'm just restructuring his entire data, because this will be much easier to do because I couldn't think of a good way to write the formula. So I get kind of the person they come to, it can be a blessing and a curse. So, um, I would love to get both of your thoughts on what advice would you offer to someone considering taking your program from CFI? I know how it works and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but you pay an annual fee and you're able to take whatever courses you want for the next 12 months, and then you can renew if you want. Is that your understanding of how it works today? Right. Okay. Perfect. So what advice would you offer to someone considering that? Why don't we start with you, Landon? What would you tell them?
[00:24:11] Guest 2:Landon Cortenbach: I would tell them, don't think about it. Just do it and you'll thank yourself for it later. Only if it's, you know, you're looking to polish up on your Excel and kind of finance FP&A skills. Obviously if you're looking for something different, I wouldn't tell you to do it, but it's really like jumping in head first and dedicating the time to really learning the practical application of what they're teaching you. Because I think there's so much value to yield from going through that coursework. Um, that will pay dividends over the course of your career.
[00:24:41] Host: Paul Barnhurst: So, yeah, I mean, that last part, like anything but put in the time. Don't try to just skate through it. Right. We've all done it. The cram the night before the final exam.
[00:24:53] Guest 2:Landon Cortenbach: Well you said it earlier too, right? Like, invest the time up front to get that scale down the line. Right. And this is no different. It just has to do with your own personal, you know, training and education.
[00:25:04] Host: Paul Barnhurst: If you're ready to take your finance career to the next level, this is your moment. Corporate Finance Institute, or CFI, is the global leader in online corporate finance certifications. Their FMVA program is built for professionals who want to move beyond theory and master the skills top finance teams actually use with FMVA. You'll learn how to build robust three-statement models, perform DCF and comparable valuation analysis, create accurate forecasts, and communicate your insights clearly using the same practical skills that top finance teams rely on to guide strategy and make better business decisions. Whether you're targeting a promotion, transitioning into FP&A, or aiming to stand out in a competitive job market, these are the qualifications that hiring managers are actively looking for. Over 2 million professionals worldwide trust CFI to gain skills, earn promotions, and advance their careers. And right now, you can do the same with 30% off any CFI plan. Visit Corporate Finance Institute to start building the skills that get you noticed and get you hired
[00:26:28] Totally agree, right? Any investment we make in ourselves is worth it. It could be personal or professional, but anytime you try to learn and expand and you're doing it from a good place, there's going to be benefit and it can help you in your career. I'm a big fan of course certifications, you know, YouTube, whatever way you may choose is just keep learning. That's the most important thing. Now CFI could be great and it could be right for some people and wrong for others. At the end of the day, as long as you're learning and you're advancing, I think that's the most important thing. Clarke, I would love your thoughts on this question.
[00:27:03] Guest 1: Clarke Carter: I would say daily consistency. Try to schedule a little bit of time for whatever course you're working on from CFI any given day. Do it in increments. Make sure it doesn't sneak up on you.and just kind of slowly build your skill set so you don't kind of have a Information dump at once and try to say, well, I'm going to try and crank through this one course in, you know, one stretch in an hour. Just break it up into chunks and kind of absorb the knowledge piecemeal in that way.
[00:27:30] Host: Paul Barnhurst: So don't do it like I've done it. I've done both the FAC and AFM since I started my own business, and it's one of them. I pretty much studied only the week before because I was just so busy on two of them, two of the three tests. And fortunately I passed somehow. But I would not recommend it as the way to study for him. It was like, all right, hopefully I pass, especially given one of one of the programs. You know, I work with them closely. And so as part of a requirement of me working with them, I take the certification. So I would add it like tell everybody publicly yep I failed. Not good. So that was an interesting experience. But you know so I love that advice. Just take it. Cfi is a great program. One thought I want to get from both of you. I think what I've heard is that the real strength is around Excel. Financial modeling, those types of things. You know, with the FP&A specialization. We'll start with you, Clarke. How about some of those soft skills? Did you find much on the way, a storytelling or data visualization, or how do they cover some of those?
[00:28:30] Guest 1: Clarke Carter: They go in depth with PowerPoint and kind of storytelling as well. And then there are some other dedicated courses specifically for interpreting and presenting data analytics associated with FP&A, and kind of adjusting those to properly communicate your message to your audience. Really helpful.
[00:28:48] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Great. No, that's good to hear, I appreciate that. What about with the FMV land and what was kind of your take on that is it feels like it's really focused on the modeling and the Excel side. Is that kind of you?
[00:28:59] Guest 2:Landon Cortenbach: Yeah. A lot focuses a lot on, you know, structure of Excel workbooks, which again, I really appreciated, um, where you're using, you know, assumption driven modeling setup in a very specific way to drive a lot of downstream calculations and the like. That was the piece that I just couldn't get enough of. Even still, to this day.
[00:29:21] Host: Paul Barnhurst: I love instruction on building a really good model because IT structure is so important. As I like to say, I've built plenty of what I call Franken models, right? Where they're just awful. And you, as you get better and better at it in your career, you look back and you're like, what was I thinking? Or as one person I interviewed one time said, put the model away for three days. If you open it and you can't remember the formulas you built, then it's too complex. Simplify it. And I thought, there's a lot of truth to that, because how many times have you opened a model and you're like, what was I thinking here? What's that supposed to be doing? And you're both laughing because I'm sure you've done it.
[00:29:58] Guest 2:Landon Cortenbach: I still do it.
[00:30:00] Host: Paul Barnhurst: God, I'm not the only one. The next question I'd like to ask. Just how much time do you find? You kind of studied in a week or kind of for the program. Do you think it's similar to what they tell you? You put in more time, just kind of give a thought on kind of expectations. Let's say, you know, if you're doing the program over, you know, kind of the normal period they recommend. Clarke, what did you find you were putting in kind of time wise for the program?
[00:30:24] Guest 1: Clarke Carter: Several hours a week, just kind of broken up each day into, you know, 30, 45 minute increments on average.
[00:30:30] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Okay. And I know you did it all in two weeks. Landon. So were you kind of transitioning between jobs, or do you just like staying up all night?
[00:30:38] Guest 2:Landon Cortenbach: Yeah, I was in a bit of a lull transitioning out of an old company during Covid, and.
[00:30:44] Host: Paul Barnhurst: That makes sense.
[00:30:45] Guest 2:Landon Cortenbach: I'm probably more of a sprinter than I am a marathon runner. And so the minute I've got motivation, passion, a real interest for something, I like to go as deep as I can, as fast as I can. And then once I kind of get through that coursework, I'll come back to it and start to polish up the things I either don't remember or I'm not as good at. And so mine was really just writing the motivation that I had over that two week period. And it was less, hey, I have to do that and more. I would just take it, be super excited and then move on to the next one and then on to the next one. I don't know that I would recommend that unless your personality is structured as such. I think clerks are very methodical, slow and steady. Don't overwhelm yourself. Probably a better approach for most folks. But also, if you're kind of like me and you're a sprinter and you've got that bug, take advantage of it because it'll pay dividends for you. I don't know that there's one right way. A lot of it is contextually relevant to your personality.
[00:31:45] Host: Paul Barnhurst: No, I completely agree. I actually run marathons. I am not a sprinter. And, you know, running or in life, I'm much more kind of the plotter and just keep going. I've never had speed, so that was a great analogy for me having done a few marathons. All right. So I appreciate that advice. You know, I want to ask a question about changing subjects a little bit. We've talked about CFI. You've been a CFO now for several years. You know, we got a lot of people in our audience that one day want to become a CFO. You know, it's becoming a more and more common path to go from FP&A to eventually CFO. What advice would you offer someone who's listening to this podcast and thinking, I want to be a CFO one day?
[00:32:26] Guest 2:Landon Cortenbach: Yeah, I think for me it was really getting curious about the business and understanding the business. I think oftentimes we can get lost in, you know, I'm great at preparing financial statements or I can whip up a financial model. Again, a lot of these things are table stakes when you get to that level of your career. What starts to differentiate you not just from your peers, but the folks that you work with on the front lines is how well do you understand the business? Can you meet them at their level? Um, so that's where I tend to advise folks, if you're not going in to tell people all the things you think they need to know. You're going to be very curious to learn about what they're doing, how that impacts operations, and what things could be done better. Once you've accumulated enough information and understanding about those processes or those operations. Right. And so, you know, I tend to focus on more of the broader business understanding. Um, I sat in a role that was called business engineering once upon a time, a kind of fusion of operations technology. And that always stuck with me because the emphasis there was always on understanding the business deeply. And if you can do that, then you kind of leverage your skill set in the background, whether it's for accounting or what have you, to tie that into your depth of understanding of the business. And so that's usually where I recommend folks to spend time, you know, really, really lean in there.
[00:33:47] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Great recommendation. I really like that one. I would agree with you. How would you recommend they do that? Like what's some of the things you do when you first go into a company to really start understanding the business?
[00:33:59] Guest 2:Landon Cortenbach: Yeah. Look easy enough. Start with whatever process documentation, organizational charts, org modeling is available. And then it's just being curious and going and meeting with folks that are either running the business or sitting shotgun with people running the business, or people that are running parts of that business. And you're really trying to assemble the puzzle of some kind of macro operations across an organization, right? To figure out how you slot in from either an accounting or a finance perspective. And so, like, I don't have one playbook. I've got, you know, a checklist of things that I want to learn and, and get access to. But every company is a little different. Some don't have great documentation. So you've got to spend a lot more time sitting with people. Some don't have enough time because it's so busy that you have to default to the documentation, right? And so it's kind of just being resourceful in learning about the business and obviously reading about industries and other like companies and benchmarks. And, you know, there's a lot of ways that you can figure out how to learn about a company, even if it's not within the company, such as other industries. And, you know, common nomenclature, which I know we talked about earlier. That's always pervasive in any company. Right. And then specifically when you get into very niche industries. And so it's again, just being curious and like being relentless in your quest for learning.
[00:35:20] Host: Paul Barnhurst: I love that last term, being relentless in your quest for learning. Just keep asking questions and find ways to learn the business. Every business is going to be a little different. There's some similarities, but like you mentioned, some have great process documentation, some have none or very little. And so you have to adjust depending on the company. I think that's a really good point. So Clarke, I would like to ask you, you know, for someone who's working in accounting and started to do a little bit more of an FP&A role, what advice would you have for someone listening that wants to do more FP&A work? Any suggestions or ideas for them?
[00:35:52] Guest 1: Clarke Carter: I mean, first and foremost, master the technical skills, specifically Excel. I feel like that's kind of a given in terms of mastering that, but also kind of looking for cross-functional opportunities. Volunteer your time. Express your interest to other groups in the company that are more, uh, at least historically closer to that kind of analytical work and kind of shadow them where appropriate, have those conversations and really kind of take what Landon said in terms of relentlessly learning, relentlessly asking questions and kind of run with it is how I would kind of summarize that. Yeah. And Clarke, if I could just add on, I absolutely love what you said. And Paul, sorry to hijack. I think one of the other things is you guys have come across this where there's a big hairy problem that needs to be solved. Everybody's kind of putting their head down because they don't want to solve it. Usually that's my cue. Just raise your hand and then you go figure it out. Right. and so finding things other folks don't want to do because it feels difficult is usually where you can separate yourself pretty quickly. Plus, within that pain, you're often learning at a much faster pace than you would doing something you're very accustomed to doing.
[00:36:58] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah, generally we're thrown in the deep end, so to speak. You often learn quicker as long as you have a life preserver and you don't drown, because there are times when you're like, okay, there's just no hope here, I need some help. But in general, I completely agree that I've had that happen more than once, and usually some of the most painful times are also the ones you learn the most from. Without a doubt. All right. So now we have a fun section. This is a section. There's a couple questions I ask every guest. The first two. So we'll start with you Clarke on the first one. And then we'll go to Landon. And then we'll flip it for the second one here. So Clarke, in your view, what is the number one technical skill that a professional should master?
[00:37:39] Guest 1: Clarke Carter: Excel. Without a doubt, it's still more than 20 years since its debut, still carrying the backbone and the infrastructure of the business world, in particular FP&A and finance.
[00:37:50] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah, we're even over 40 years now.
[00:37:52] Guest 1: Clarke Carter: Yep, yep.
[00:37:53] Host: Paul Barnhurst: It's pretty crazy. What about you, Landon?
[00:37:56] Guest 2:Landon Cortenbach: Yeah, I won't use that one. I would say, like, peripheral tech that optimizes what you're doing in Excel and your workflows.
[00:38:04] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Give an example like just kind of love to hear. Just a brief example.
[00:38:08] Guest 2:Landon Cortenbach: I think you guys talked a little bit about it. So let's use power BI right. So just being able to lean in with other more advanced tech to help you with either data quality or data mining or visualizations. Right. I think technology proliferation is so rapid right now that if you don't understand how to leverage technology and kind of work your way through it, you're going to get left behind. And I also find that that's one of those areas, you know, that a lot of finance and accounting folks can differentiate themselves from when they have this real knack for leveraging technology to do work better, faster, smarter.
[00:38:46] Host: Paul Barnhurst: 100% agree it's a great way to stand out, whether it's learning SQL, taking advantage of AI, a little bit of Python, VBA, there's different things. It's going to be different in each job. The more you have multiple tools in your tool belt to solve something the better. Because, you know, Excel is wonderful and we can do just about anything in Excel. But that doesn't mean we should do everything in Excel, right? And so it's knowing the right tool for the right jobs. I think that's a great point. All right. So you get to go first here Landon. So this time Clarke can't steal your answer. What would you call the number one soft skill that FP&A professionals need to master?
[00:39:22] Guest 2:Landon Cortenbach: Two answers I would say are curiosity and communication. You know, curiosity to learn, curiosity to understand functions, people's roles. You know, soaking up as much knowledge as you can to better yourself and your job. And then I think Clarke touched on this earlier. I think communication and then, you know, further extended out storytelling, very important and kind of meeting people where they are and not, you know, talking jargon that finance folks tend to do. but really getting into a common business language that kind of breaks down those barriers that tend to exist, you know, for certain finance and accounting functions.
[00:39:58] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Great. Those are good answers, Clarke. What's yours? Echo all of.
[00:40:02] Guest 1: Clarke Carter: What Landon said. And also probably understanding some of the, uh, emotional intelligence implications involved with Faha. You're working with a lot of different personalities across potentially multiple areas of the business, and then kind of understanding the interpersonal dynamics in terms of how each person might have different motivations for one reason or another, and how those all connect and interact.
[00:40:25] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah, emotional intelligence is a huge one. I've had, you know, various influencing kind of building relationships, all kinds of things around that. I've had emotional intelligence. People say that before. Empathy. Right. Really understanding people and being able to relate to them is critical in an FP&A role. So it's a great answer. I appreciate both those answers. All right. We got one more question in the Q&A section. Then we'll go to the Get to know You section. We have some fun questions for you to get to know you a little bit more personally. So we'll start with, uh, you on this one, Clarke. How do you see AI changing over the next few years? Just maybe AI and technology in general. What are your thoughts? I know there's no right answer. We just all know it's changing quickly.
[00:41:08] Guest 1: Clarke Carter: I think so. I mean, obviously the default is automating a lot of the busy work in terms of potentially, you know, any manual updates you're having to make in models that I feel like is kind of a given, but hopefully seeing more in terms of advanced forecasting algorithms and that sort of thing, kind of carrying down into more company software tools so more people can use them effectively.
[00:41:29] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah. And I definitely think we're starting to see that. I think those are both great points. And we all want to bring down that 30, 40% number. Right. Wouldn't we all love it to be more like ten or 15 or 5 or whatever. But definitely not 30 or 40? Landon, what about you?
[00:41:44] Guest 2:Landon Cortenbach: I mean, everywhere I read, we're not going to have jobs in five years, so. Um.
[00:41:51] Host: Paul Barnhurst: You know, I'll have a universal basic income.
[00:41:53] Guest 2:Landon Cortenbach: Yeah. I have no point of view. This thing is moving so fast. I tend to look at the brighter side of things of just better enabling people. Yeah, I tend to align with what Clarke said. I think, you know, kind of your advanced analysis and interrogation of data like we're seeing now, but that's the one that probably rings most true, right? Like you've got massive data sets. Being able to interrogate that in a very mindful or meaningful way quickly. You know, in five years, it's going to be light years ahead of where it is now. Um, but that's one of the areas that I could see just really exploding outside of what you guys mentioned, of just more AI driven modeling and forecasting.
[00:42:35] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Sure. I mean, it's definitely an exciting time to be alive. Sometimes a little scary with how quick it's moving. You're like, oh, wait, it's that good. Now, yesterday it wasn't that good. Like, did I miss something? That's what it feels like sometimes. So it's an exciting time and definitely it's something we can lean into because it is going to make us more efficient. And that's where we have to focus. Because yes, we all hear the doomsday, right? Ai is going to take over the world and they're going to conquer all of us, or it's going to take every job or whatever. And it's like, okay, let's just all step back and, you know, focus on what we can control. So all right, so here's the personal section. Got two questions for you. Landon and I have two for you Clarke. And they're different for each of you. So we'll start with this one. Landon, if you could have any job in the world for one week, what job are you taking and why?
[00:43:24] Guest 2:Landon Cortenbach: Yeah, mine would be I would want to be the GM of the Dodgers for a week just to see what goes on behind the scenes.
[00:43:30] Host: Paul Barnhurst: I'm a Dodgers fan.
[00:43:31] Guest 2:Landon Cortenbach: So yeah, I'm a huge baseball nerd. Always have been. You know, when I went to college, originally, I was going to be a sports agent. I realized this thing for me. Um, but I always had a love for baseball and kind of the, you know, the business side of the game is super interesting to me.
[00:43:49] Host: Paul Barnhurst: So I'm going to take it if you read Moneyball.
[00:43:51] Guest 2:Landon Cortenbach: Oh, yeah.
[00:43:52] Host: Paul Barnhurst: What was your favorite part from that book?
[00:43:54] Guest 2:Landon Cortenbach: Oh, I don't know that. I've got one favorite part. I think, you know, the thing that I always come back to is, you know, baseball historically has been about feel, right. Like there's just no replacement for experience and being around the game and knowing what to look for. But really, it was like this fusion of that feel, experience, instinct with data that I thought was really fascinating. Right? And not that data can be the end all be all, because I do think there are some faults with just running a data driven team, only because you're still dealing with humans at the end of the day. But kind of that fusion was the thing that I always get drawn back into, like it's people and hardcore data and analytics that is really wild.
[00:44:38] Host: Paul Barnhurst: And I agree. So what position did you play in college?
[00:44:42] Guest 2:Landon Cortenbach: Oh man. Everywhere in the infield. Third, short second first. I could hit a little bit. So they were just finding a way for me to play. Um so a.
[00:44:50] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Little bit of a utility.
[00:44:51] Guest 2:Landon Cortenbach: Player. Yeah, I would fancy myself a utility guy, but.
[00:44:54] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Mostly in the infield.
[00:44:55] Guest 2:Landon Cortenbach: Yeah.
[00:44:56] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Okay. And then I think I know who your favorite team is. I'm gonna guess the Dodgers. If you want to be their general manager. Who's your favorite player?
[00:45:03] Guest 2:Landon Cortenbach: Oh, favorite player right now? You know, I've got a ton on the Dodgers right now. It's probably Freddy Freeman. Mostly because it's like making something look that easy consistently is very difficult right. And I think my wife is a big baseball fan. She's like, I don't like Freddy Freeman because he's boring. I'm like, well, that's kind of the point. He's so good. He makes it look boring. Like.
[00:45:27] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah, there are people who just make it look effortless.
[00:45:30] Guest 2:Landon Cortenbach: You can't like it. It's hard to understand that if you haven't played and know the nuance and how genuinely difficult it is to hit a baseball. And he's just, like, making it look super easy. I could go the Shohei Ohtani route. I could go the Mookie Betts route. There's a bunch of great players, but he's the one that stands out because it just almost looks boring. And I'm just like, wow, that's just a next level of hand-eye coordination and skill set.
[00:45:52] Host: Paul Barnhurst: As for me, I would probably have to go. Tony right now is my favorite. That Marlins game last year where he just had, I think, the greatest game ever played.
[00:45:59] Guest 2:Landon Cortenbach: Most exciting guy to watch for sure.
[00:46:01] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah, no, you never know what's going to happen, so it'll be fun to watch. Alright, enough baseball talk. Clarke will go over to you. The show isn't about baseball, so there'll probably be a few people that are turned off, but that's okay, I don't mind. All right. What did you want to be when you grew up? When you were a child? When you were a child, what was the profession you wanted?
[00:46:19] Guest 1: Clarke Carter: It was kind of a two way tie between artist and historian. So pretty much the polar opposite of what I ultimately settled on.
[00:46:28] Host: Paul Barnhurst: So you do a lot of art stuff today?
[00:46:30] Guest 1: Clarke Carter: I do not, um, that was very much something that kind of was very intense in like childhood and adolescence and then kind of gravitated more towards business and economics as a teenager, started kind of tuning into CNBC Squawk Box. I kind of started to the spark that ignited the interest there, and then kind of gradually moved much more towards accounting and finance in college. The most creative thing that I do now is probably just the VBA and macros. That's kind of my opportunity to create on a daily basis. You're a VBA artist? I would, I am not, but I do enjoy creating them.
[00:47:09] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah, we know, we know we have an Excel nerd when their creativity and I'm including myself and the creativity is right doing something in Excel. So I love it. So if you could recommend one book to our audience, is there a book you'd recommend that they read?
[00:47:26] Guest 1: Clarke Carter: Probably. Banker to the Poor by Muhammad Yunus, uh, famous professor of economics, uh, from Bangladesh, kind of tells the story of Microlending, uh, and how that kind of transformed the economy of that country. And I read it back in college, uh, as part of a joint statistics microeconomics course. So definitely left an impression and quite an interesting subject matter.
[00:47:50] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Love it. Thank you for sharing that. Sounds like a great book. I've heard a lot about it. I haven't read the book, but I know what you're talking about in that movement and I have to pick that up one of these days. All right. Last question for you. To each of you, you know, any parting advice you'd like to give our audience around? Either the CFI program or FP&A in general? Just want to give you kind of a last chance to share. Any last thoughts before we wrap up, we'll start with you, Clarke and Landon. We'll give you the last words. So go ahead.
[00:48:15] Guest 1: Clarke Carter: Clarke would say just again, consistency and taking initiative and being very diligent and kind of working through and picking up a little bit every single day.
[00:48:25] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Love it. That's a great one. Landon.
[00:48:28] Guest 2:Landon Cortenbach: Yeah, I would say, you know, find your passion for learning, fall in love with learning. And the reason I say that is, you know, I was an auditor early in my career. I always joke, like, your job as an auditor is to fact check people way smarter than you, especially when you're coming out of college. So if you're not, if you're not careful, you can develop a little bit of arrogance, which I certainly did, which kind of stunted my love for learning. And so it was really when I started to fall in love with learning that my career took off. And so I always advise people like, find something you love to do and then fall in love with learning because it'll take you so many places and you don't know where it's going to take you.
[00:49:05] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Totally agree. I think that's great advice. You know, one of the best things we can give anyone and we can give ourselves is that gift of learning. Because if you're not learning, you're stagnant. And it doesn't have to be just work. That's why, as the personal professional, all those things, why almost always ask in an interview, tell me something you're learning about. I go, it can be personal or professional. Of course you're taking something you're doing just to see. Is this someone who's always trying to learn new things? Develop? It gives you an idea, their mindset. I don't really care if it's work related per se. It's more to kind of just see. So I'm with you. I think that's some great advice. And thank you, Clarke and Landon for carving out some time talking to me in the evening. I really appreciate it. I know it took us a little while to get this coordinated. A few little fun things happened, but thank you so much for joining the show. It was a real pleasure having you both on.
[00:49:54] Guest 2:Landon Cortenbach: Thanks for having me. Thanks, Paul.
[00:49:57] Host: Paul Barnhurst:Thanks for listening to FP&A tomorrow. If you enjoyed the show, please leave us a five star rating and a review on your podcast platform of choice. This allows us to continue to bring you great guests from around the globe. As a reminder, you can earn CPE credit by going to earmarkcpe.com, downloading the app, taking a short quiz, and getting your CPE certificate to earn continuing education credits for the FPAC certification. Take the quiz on earmark and contact me the show host for further details.