Building a Practical Financial Modeling Course for students focused on sustainability with Michael & Janice

Written By Paul Barnhurst

In this episode of Financial Modeler’s Corner, host Paul Barnhurst speaks with Janice Shade and Michael Tapia about the intersection of sustainability, financial modeling, and education. They share the behind-the-scenes creation of a unique MBA course focused on sustainable finance and modeling at Bard College. The episode dives into horror stories from the modeling trenches, highlights the challenges of teaching complex topics in an accessible way, and explores the future of financial education and tools.

Janice is a systems entrepreneur and finance educator with over 30 years of experience. She has worked with both for-profit and nonprofit ventures, focusing on democratic access to capital and economic justice. Janice is also the author of Moving Mountains and teaches finance at Bard’s MBA in Sustainability program. Michael transitioned from the fitness industry into sustainable finance. With an MBA in Impact Finance from Bard, he co-developed and co-taught a financial modeling course that incorporates ESG data and sustainability into traditional financial analysis. Michael is passionate about inclusive, community-driven investment strategies and financial education.


Expect to Learn

  • What makes a financial model “fit for purpose”, and why complexity isn’t always better.

  • How financial modeling can support sustainability and social impact.

  • Tips for teaching finance to non-finance students and building curriculum from the ground up.

  • The importance of scenario and sensitivity analysis in forecasting.

  • Practical insights on bridging theory and hands-on financial modeling in academia.


Here are a few quotes from the episode:

  • "Finance shouldn't feel mystical or exclusive, our goal is to make it approachable and relevant." - Janice Shade

  • "As a former trainer, I saw how performance metrics drove change. Now I see capital can do the same, if used with purpose." - Michael Tapia

  • "Forecasting is hard, and no forecast is ever right. We're just trying to make it less wrong." - Janice Shade

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In today’s episode: 

[02:29] - Introduction of Janice and Michael

[07:20] - Worst Financial Model

[14:04] - Defining a Financial Model

[15:18] - Story Behind the MBA Modeling Course

[22:43] - Janice’s Key Takeaways from First Cohort

[29:34] - Michael’s Course and Podcast Episodes

[42:45] - Favourite Shortcut in Excel

[43:47] - Creative Excel Uses

[47:32] - Rapid Fire Section


Full Show Transcript

[00:01:39] Welcome to Financial Modeler's Corner. I am your host, Paul Barnhart. This is a podcast where we talk all about the art and science of financial modeling, with distinguished guests from around the globe. The Financial Modeler’s Corner podcast is brought to you by the Financial modeling Institute, FMI offers the most respected accreditations in financial modeling. And that's why I completed the Advanced Financial Modeler. And I signed up for the Chartered Financial Modelers. I'm a believer in their programs. I'm thrilled this week to welcome two guests on the show. I have Janice Shade with me and Michael Tapia. So Janice, welcome to the show.
[00:02:20] Guest 1: Janice Shade: Thank you. It's exciting to be here.


[00:02:22] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah, really excited to have you. Michael, welcome to the show.


[00:02:25] Guest 2: Michael Tapia: Yeah. Thank you for having both of us. I'm very excited.


[00:02:28] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah, we're excited to have you. So let me give a little bit of their background to our audience and then we'll jump into our questions. So Janice is a systems entrepreneur, financial innovator, educator and author with 30 plus years experience building brands, businesses and movements. After an early career in brand management at Procter and Gamble, Welch's and seventh Generation, she transitioned to entrepreneurism to explore new models of capitalism. Since 2006, she's launched a series of for profit and not for profit ventures that share common themes of democratic access to capital and economic justice. In March 2020, she published Moving Mountains: The Power of Main Street Americans to Change Our Economy, in which she explores the impact of traditional capital markets on social entrepreneurism. Her current venture into community capital provides foundational fund design and financial modeling expertise to support the launch and expansion of community investment funds. She's also a professor of finance and accounting at Bard. Mba in sustainability. Janice delights in teaching and learning from the next generation of sustainable business leaders. Love the background. I think I could do a whole long conversation with you just on traditional capitalism versus this kind of whole social idea, and I'm a big fan of Kirby and a lot of the things we see, so I love seeing that in your background because that's kind of a passion of mine.


[00:04:02] Host: Paul Barnhurst: I'm a big fan of a company here called Cotopaxi that does a lot in that space. I know your CEO, I know their former CFO. I'm good friends with him, and another friend of mine knows their other co-founder and I just love what they do. Such a great space. All right. Michael is a purpose driven finance professional and educator with a strong commitment to sustainable and impact investing. He began his career in the sports and fitness industry as a coach at Equinox, where he guided clients to achieve health and performance goals through personalized, data driven strategies motivated to create broader change. He transitioned into sustainable finance, earning an MBA in Impact Finance at Bard College to leverage capital for social and environmental good. At Bard College, he co-developed and taught a financial modeling course focused on sustainability, equipping students with practical skills for impactful investment decisions. His professional experience includes roles at MSCI, Amtrak and Energy Transition Capital, where he transformed complex ESG data into actionable strategies and integrated climate risk analytics into long term planning. Michael is dedicated to advancing inclusive, community focused investment solutions and continues to drive positive change at the intersection of finance, sustainability and education. Love it there, Michael. And I bet that was quite the transition going from sports to sustainable finance.


[00:05:38] Guest 2: Michael Tapia: Yeah, it definitely was. And I've learned a lot more acronyms in the process.


[00:05:45] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah, the business world, whether it's finance or wherever you are, is full of acronyms. Yeah, I have my hat. I'm not sure if I have it in the room right now, but I have an EBITDA that I often wear. Speaking of acronyms, and I think I've told this story before, but I think you'll both get a laugh out of it. I was at the doctor's office and I was wearing a hat. I usually don't wear it out in public. I didn't even think about it. The doctor was like, what's EBITDA? And I tried to explain it to him and he looked at it. He goes, you're speaking, doctor, to the doctor? Like, I have no idea what you're talking about. It was pretty funny. It was a reminder of how much you need to simplify the terms, how hard it can be for somebody coming into the space for sure. I'm sure it was a hard transition. Mike.


[00:06:25] Guest 2: Michael Tapia: Yeah, and I really liked your shirt that you wore the other day that you shared on LinkedIn. I think the sheet is done. That was. Yeah, that's a fun shirt too.


[00:06:34] Host: Paul Barnhurst: So I love that company. It's called Farsi. They're over in Croatia and I've got to work with them some. I visited Croatia in my MBA program. We studied transition economies in Eastern Europe. We did a course and so I was in Croatia. So I always had a kind of a soft spot for me. And I've always admired that company. And they put that online and I'm like, I want one of those. And they dug one up and sent it to me. So very cool. I've really enjoyed it. Yeah. That's a fun one. I got a few others like that as well. I have one, you know, the freak in the sheets. I have enough different things from webinars, all kinds from vendors, from going to all kinds of events. They all send me their gear now because I'll wear it right there, like, oh, free walking billboard. Yeah. That's fun. All right. We're going to get to the question I ask everybody. You know what's coming. Janice, tell me about that worst financial model you've ever had to work on or seen or kind of what that story is that horror story for you?


[00:07:29] Guest 1: Janice Shade: Oh, yeah. So being an entrepreneur myself and someone with the kind of the finance brain, I've done a lot of consulting with entrepreneurs, especially those who are getting ready to go out and do a capital round. So helping them to get their financials ready, putting their pitch deck together. And I remember meeting with an entrepreneur one time who had done a lot of work with our local small business development center, which was great. I'm a big fan of the SBDC. They do a lot of great work for business owners and entrepreneurs. But man, this model, this financial model that they gave to this poor entrepreneur, this poor guy to do his financials was overkill. Multiple worksheets like the level of minutia and like I just remember the the cost of goods schedule that he had for and he had multiple products and like getting into just excruciating detail, trying to, uh, report and forecast on the, you know, the, you know, cost of goods per product. And I looked at the spreadsheet and I was like, you know, it's an elegant spreadsheet. It's beautiful in its complexity. And yet when I asked him, like, what does this tell you? Like, what do you know about your gross profit margin based on all this work you did. He's like, I don't even know what you're talking about. I said, well, where did all these numbers come from? He's like, I don't know. I just gave it to my accountant and they filled it all in. And that's where I was like, okay, we're going to take this small. We're not going to throw it out, but we're going to simplify it enormously. And, you know, it was just that I felt so bad for the poor guy because he'd gone through all of the work to build this model, but it did nothing for him. He, like he couldn't get the answers out of it. So I was like, if you can't get the information out of it, how are you ever supposed to present that in your pitch deck?


[00:09:24] Host: Paul Barnhurst: You know, kind of speaking to that, I had, uh, somebody who recently was on the show mentioned they had a client that came to him and they'd gone online and bought a model spent like, you know, 5 or $600. And it was total overkill. They were a startup and they're like elegant models, but you're missing the boat. So I think you make a great point, Janice. Sometimes the worst models you see are not that they're bad models at all. It's just that they're not fit for the purpose. They're either way too simple or way too complex. Sometimes, usually, especially if you're a startup, it's the complexity. You don't know the answers to all that, nor does it usually help you. Yes, you need to understand your business. Yes, you need a forecast, but not like that.


[00:10:05] Guest 1: Janice Shade: Exactly. And I even have told some entrepreneurs that, you know, when they go and actually we use this in I use this in my some of my coursework at Bard too, as, as students are putting together models, like the more detail you put into your financials and show prospective investors, the more they're going to zeroing in, latch in on that one number and say, where did that number come from? So you better be sure you want to talk about that number and know the, the, you know, the backstory on it, because it's inevitable.


[00:10:35] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Some of the best advice I got on that, you know, as far as investors love to get your thoughts. And then we'll get your answer here, Michael, if I had to somebody say, look, if you're building a startup, what are the 2 or 3 assumptions that you're really different about, that you're comfortable with, that are really important, that you feel you can speak to really well? Focus on those. Use benchmarks for everything else. Then you can talk intelligently to your investor and you can say, look, we just use the benchmark average. We welcome your input on that. But we did that for all these. Here's the ones we think are important versus having to try to get detailed on every single one of them. And then you're getting drilled and you're like, I don't know exactly.


[00:11:12] Guest 1: Janice Shade: Because and that's the thing is that, you know, at some point, because especially with entrepreneurs where, you know, you might have a prototype, but you've got no sales experience or really limited experience, you don't know what the impact in the market is going to be. So to try to forecast out to that level of detail is actually quite dangerous, I think, and it sets up expectations among prospective investors or your current investors that you might not be able to deliver on. So benchmarking I think is super smart. Like pick the pick. Like you said, pick a couple things where you know, you feel like you have a pretty good idea of our. Our things are different because of this. And so it's going to have this kind of impact. We're going to use benchmarks and we're going to build our model so that as we learn, we can modify and and either modify our benchmarks or build in new assumptions. So always put that part in like we're going to learn as we go and then we'll make better forecasts.


[00:12:13] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah I know great I hear you Michael. What's your horror story? Is it when you had to take your first modeling class and build your own model? That's probably mine. I've built some pretty horrible models over the years actually.


[00:12:27] Guest 2: Michael Tapia: Yeah it is. I recently looked at a model I built for a public company during the first year of my MBA program. So a couple of years ago, and during the first year of the program, we all took an intro to accounting and another finance class. And Janice is one of the professors for both of those classes, and so my numbers and assumptions were all fine, but my formatting and setup was all over the place. I didn't know what the difference was really yet until with vertical versus horizontal models, and especially with what I know now when it comes to best practices. So I'm sorry, Janice, that you had to grade that. Um, but that's definitely probably the worst one that I've done in my time so far.


[00:13:08] Host: Paul Barnhurst: I hear you had a guy on the show that you may have listened to, Chris Riley. Most people know him. He told the story where he had two really complex models, and he had to take input from one model to the other, and he had literally because they were so big, it would crash the machine. If he opened both up, he'd take a picture of the number he needed on his phone, open up the other model and transfer it. That was his horror story. He's like, yeah, I overcomplicated those models. So we've all been there, and he now is one of the best educators in the world on financial modeling. So, you know.


[00:13:39] Guest 2: Michael Tapia: I've, I was introduced to him through your podcast and he's great. I've learned so much from him, even just through a simple error check or like a formula helpers tab. He's been super helpful.


[00:13:49] Host: Paul Barnhurst: He's one of the people. He's one of my go to. If I have a question. So it just shows we all have to learn somewhere. We all have horror stories. Some of them are from others, some of them are from ourselves. It's definitely a journey. So this is a question we started asking because it gets such different answers from everybody. And how would you define what a financial model is? If I asked you that, Michael? I'd love to kind of get your thoughts. How would you define it?


[00:14:12] Guest 2: Michael Tapia: The financial model. It's a tool that translates real world business scenarios into numbers and projections. And from what I've been learning through your podcast and all the different resources I've been consuming over the last couple of years, it just helps decision makers understand the financial implications of different actions, whether it's launching a new product, investing in new projects, or planning for long term sustainability. And it's just a more structured way to ask what if and get actionable answers from that process.


[00:14:42] Host: Paul Barnhurst: I really love the one thing you said there. I almost use that as a statement. It's a more structured way to help answer the what if questions. Mhm. If you want to get really simple. You know that that's a really good uh, definition that gets to the heart of it. So thank you. I appreciate you sharing that. I know both of you have been doing the course. We've talked about that a little bit. I know I got the opportunity to come speak to your students, and you've been using some of the episodes with the students. So I want to ask a little bit and share that story with our audience. So we'll go with you, Janice. And then Michael, I'll give you the opportunity to kind of fill in and add your thoughts on this, but tell us the story of how this course came together, Janice, how it came about this MBA modeling course.


[00:15:24] Guest 1: Janice Shade: Well, yeah. So, um, I Michael's going to tell you the bulk of the story, but there's the I'm kind of the backstory, I guess, you know, as, as Michael mentioned, you know, I, I also teach the introductory level accounting and finance courses at Bard MBA. And the way that we approach these courses is, you know, we, like I say, every year, first day of class. I'm not here to train the next batch of CPAs or even the next batch of CFOs, but everyone in business needs to understand accounting and financial principles and concepts. And what we're here to do is to make finance concepts and language more approachable and accessible and understandable to get, you know, kind of get at the acronyms and the jargon that we know exists out there. And that I think some in the finance world maybe like to perpetuate a bit because it makes them feel special. I don't know, but it is, you know, it has a sometimes mystical quality, the, you know, natural financial language. And so that is something that is really important as we approach both of these courses. And so that's. Kind of woven throughout. And one of the happy byproducts that has come from approaching accounting and finance this way is, first of all, you know, people who come to me at the beginning of the semester and say, I'm not a finance person, I'm terrified of this.


[00:16:57] Guest 1: Janice Shade: And I'm like, okay, thanks for sharing, and we're going to try to get you over that. And by the end of the year, they're like, I get it now. Think, you know, I get it. so there that that, comfort level, that new financial literacy is that's like, that's what we're aiming for. But, you know, for the introductory level courses. But then what I've realized just in the last year or so is that it also planted a little seed and a bunch of students like, now that they're kind of awakened to the fact, like, oh, finance is not so scary. I want to learn more. Like that was the seed of where this course came from as it was the student saying, I want to learn more. How do we do that? And so the part I had to play was just maybe planting that little bit of seed or generating that awakening to finance. But it was 100% student driven. And I'm going to let Michael take it from here.


[00:17:55] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah. Michael, tell us a little more about this.


[00:17:59] Guest 2: Michael Tapia: Yeah, absolutely. So the course is called Financial Modeling and Valuation for sustainability. And like Janice was saying, it was born out of a need that I myself saw. And other students in the MBA program saw. So like we I didn't want to take full credit for this course or the kind of the idea of it. But there were definitely other students, current and alumni who were advocating for a course like this and involved in the process. And it basically students just wanted more practical, hands on skills for financial modeling and impact investing. Janice and I still joke that we can't believe students have been asking and wanting to use Excel more. And so our program does a great job at introducing accounting, finance, portfolio construction and sustainable finance standards. Like the Task Force on nature related Financial Disclosures or Sustainability Accounting Standards. But myself and other students wanted to go deeper and bridge the gap between theory and practice, and then go even deeper into our financial analysis. And so our program puts the emphasis on the soft skills that I know that you and other guests have spoken about how important those are when it comes to modeling with, like, storytelling and communicating sustainability, especially to decision makers and various stakeholders who maybe don't see the value in integrating sustainability into their business plan is either a value driver or risk mitigation tool. And especially when it's financially material to their business. So Janice and I developed this curriculum that integrated sustainability into financial analysis. And how do you build a model for a public company? But also what does it look like when you incorporate sustainability initiatives and ESG issues? So it was definitely a collaborative effort between students who took the course past students, and it was incredibly rewarding to see students apply these skills to real companies. And I'm super appreciative of the program for trusting me with the involvement of this course and Janice who did so much work to get this course approved. And it was such a fun process being involved in it, and I've learned so much.


[00:19:59] Host: Paul Barnhurst: I think that last part is, you know, just wonderful. You learned a lot, right? That's the goal. I guess. That's what you want to see, right? You love when the students are actually like, oh, they actually learn something versus we've all had it. The students say, you know, we're just there to get the grade as quick as they can and go on their way. And so I really love sharing. And I like that you put sustainability in it. You don't see that talk much when you talk about modeling or in courses. And I know that's a core part of the whole program at Bard. So obviously you incorporate that in modeling And. And I'm curious, you know, if you finished your first cohort, you've had the opportunity to go through a course. What's your favorite memory from this, from going through all this? Michael, is there one thing that really stands out to you or experience that you could share from it?


[00:20:47] Host: Paul Barnhurst:  While my background is in FP&A. I am also passionate about financial modeling. Like many financial Modelers, I was self-taught. Then I discovered the Financial Modeling Institute, the organization that offers the advanced financial modeling program. I am a proud holder of the AFM. Preparing for the AFM exam made me a better modeler. If you want to improve your modeling skills, I recommend the AFM program. Podcast listeners. Save 15% on the AFM program. Just use Code Podcast.



[00:21:28] Guest 2: Michael Tapia: My favorite memory is definitely after one of our online lectures. So we were the whole semester and prepping for this class. We were trying to find ways of balancing lecture and hands on exercises, and one thing that we came up with for one of the classes was an auditing slash scavenger hunt exercise for the students. It was relatively simple, but we wanted students to use kind of the most common or simple auditing tips and tricks to find errors in their models, things like trace precedence and go to special. And so many students messaged us after class saying how helpful that was and how much it helped them balance their balance sheet, or just find areas where they accidentally grabbed the wrong cell. And then immediately, Janice and I were thinking about ways of maybe introducing this exercise earlier in the semester, because it was such a great way for students getting that auditing experience, especially if they felt stuck on something and they couldn't, like, move past a certain part of their model. So that was really fun and gratifying.


[00:22:26] Host: Paul Barnhurst: That sounds like a really great way to teach it. The kind of scavenger hunt like you mentioned. Because anytime you can incorporate fun into learning, you get a higher retention involvement. It's better as long as it makes sense. And so I love that example. I'm curious. Janice, this is, you know, the first time you've done this course. I know you said the students did a lot of work. What's kind of maybe your takeaways or things you do differently next time, or what's kind of been your key, key learnings now that you've wrapped up your first cohort?


[00:22:56] Guest 1: Janice Shade: Yeah, there were a lot. Um.


[00:22:59] Host: Paul Barnhurst: They're always the first time.


[00:23:01] Guest 1: Janice Shade: Kind of the first one was that we were way too ambitious with our syllabus. Um, we packed so much into what we ended up doing. You know, that's me. I understand slimming that down. And then, you know, there are a couple other, like, little nuts and bolts things that Michael and I are going to work on, but really kind of from a, like a pedagogical, uh, standpoint, the one thing that where I want to put a lot more focus on is something I call the art and science of forecasting and building pro forma. So about halfway through the semester, as the students were working on you, that it was a semester-long project for them to build first, a three, you know, their three statement model for a public company that they were, um, analyzing. And then they had to start building out the pro forma for it. So about halfway through the semester, you know, we got into how do you build a pro forma, how do you build, you know, how do you do forecasting. And one of the things that I realized as we went on, like I, I knew students had had some experience with forecasting because we do it in our, our first year, um, accounting course, where they have to build out a discounted cash flow model for a, you know, fictitious startup that they're working on.


[00:24:13] Guest 1: Janice Shade: Um, so they had some. But doing a pro forma for, you know, a startup that you're just kind of building from scratch and trying to do a pro forma for ExxonMobil or The Gap, Inc. or Amalgamated Bank. That kind of thing really proved to be pretty tough for folks. And so over the course of the semester, I could just tell through the kinds of questions that like the things that I was consistently seeing in office hours of the questions. Um, this is an area that I want to focus on a lot more in the coming semester. When we do the course again, it is helping people. First of all, you know, I don't know how many times I said it, but I'm going to say it a lot more next fall, I'm sure. Forecasting is hard and no forecast is ever right. Like every forecast is wrong. And what we're trying to help you do is to make it less wrong first through good structure. So we spent a lot of time on the structure. But really and I think students got that part.


[00:25:14] Guest 1: Janice Shade: But it's building the assumptions and thinking about like what do you think? You know, R&D costs are going to be for ExxonMobil for the next three years. What kind of CapEx are they going to be doing? How can you get more comfortable with making those kinds of projections? And yeah, so a lot of work on that and maybe linking more of that kind of thinking to then the scenario and sensitivity analysis, which we introduced maybe a little too late in the semester, because I think that would be a way to get people more comfortable to say, um, you know, like one of the things that I could see, like the anxiety, like, drain out of people's faces when they would come to me and say, I don't know, like I think it's going to be between 5 to 10 million. Great. Let's do some scenario analysis, one where you assume 5,000,001 where you assume ten, and that's how you build your model. Like oh okay, I get that. So forecasting getting people comfortable with just the uncertainty um, of forecasting and then and then knowing there are mechanisms to help deal with some of that uncertainty with sensitivity and scenario analysis.


[00:26:26] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Exactly. I love what you said. One. Help me realize. Look, it's going to be wrong. Just accept it. So I love the quote from George Box. All models are wrong. Some are useful.


[00:26:35] Guest 1: Janice Shade: We use that all the time.


[00:26:37] Host: Paul Barnhurst: You know, I always like to say if I could forecast accurately, I wouldn't be here. I'd be up in the mountains, camping somewhere and fishing and just doing whatever I want because I would have made a fortune in the stock market.


[00:26:47] Guest 1: Janice Shade: One of our students, I think we used that quote so many times, you know, all forecasts are wrong. Some are useful. Um, one of the students actually incorporated that into her final write up on her model, and she's like, she's like, I finally believe that. Like I see how my model is probably wrong, but it's still useful. Like victory.


[00:27:07] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah. My favorite is I had someone on the podcast one time he goes and biopharmaceuticals. We just say the first half all models are wrong. We don't even say they're useful and I laughed. So there you go. But yeah, I agree. It's you know, it's learning. It's just learning the process and the assumptions and helping to reduce risk. You're trying to decide if you should do something and reduce risk. That's really what the modeling is about is those two things. Is this something we want to do is the decision we want to make? How can we reduce risk? Where do we need to be careful? Scenarios and sensitivities help you with that. And you know you want to be directionally correct. You know, it's not about, like you said, being accurate, but if you make some totally wild assumptions, you're also going to get a big problem. That's where the useful part comes in.


[00:27:57] Guest 1: Janice Shade: It's funny, I was just thinking directionally like getting people comfortable with that concept of its directionally correct. If you put in these inputs, what's the direction of your outputs? That in itself is useful even if the n number is somewhat meaningless. So I think that directionality is an important concept for people to get.


[00:28:18] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah. A really underappreciated Appreciated skill is the whole idea of just being able to look at something and do the sniff test, right. If your revenue is growing 300% in your Apple, that's what you forecast. You should be able to look at that immediately. Go, something's wrong. And just being able to have that skill is a huge part of the assumptions. And making it useful is being able to understand, because we've all done that. We've all got done with models, and you're looking at the numbers and you're like, there's no way if I could do this, I'm retiring or whatever it might be, or wait, negative cash. That can't be right.


[00:28:53] Guest 1: Janice Shade: That was actually a really useful learning experience for the students, too. You know, kind of seeing like, okay, I got my whole model done. And here's the answer. And giving it that sniff test and saying, wow, that's really off. There's something wrong with my model. And like that was their first place to go. Is there something inherently wrong with the structure of my model? And through working with them often what I found was that your model works great. What this is telling you is maybe your assumptions are off. Maybe you've, you know, like, let's think about your assumptions. And so that also was, I think, really eye opening and useful for people to learn.


[00:29:32] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah. Agreed. So all right. Got this next question for you here, Michael. You know, I think you initially reached out to me mentioning you wanted to, you know, you're using some of the episodes of the show for your course. How did that come about? How do you decide which episodes to include some of the episodes? I'd love to hear a little bit more about that. I know you and I have talked about that, but share that with the audience.


[00:29:55] Guest 2: Michael Tapia: Yeah, I was definitely very nervous to reach out to you in general at the beginning, so I appreciate how nice you are and receptive to my message. But there were so many episodes I wanted to include, but I had to kind of scale it back. Be mindful of students and how much we put on their plate. But for our class, we really wanted to emphasize the three financial statements: Storytelling, formatting, and best practices. Simplicity. And then, like I was saying, balancing the lecture with hands-on skill building for the class and being mindful of how we were teaching and providing resources to students. I have ADHD, and our students all have varying learning styles and are also just super busy working full time jobs or internships on top of being in school. So being able to multitask and listen to a podcast is great. And I really thought that the episodes with David C Brown, Chris Riley, Ian Schnur from FMI, Scott Powell from CFI and then Rashid Jain showcase all of these learning objectives that I wanted to get across to the class. And now that we're going back into the fall semester with the second iteration of this class, I'm definitely excited to go through kind of your catalog again and to reassess the required readings and resources with all the episodes that you've released this year, because I haven't been able to do that yet, and kind of just building upon those same learning objectives for the next class. I'm probably keeping a lot of the same ones, to be honest.


[00:31:25] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah, and I love that. And thank you for sharing. And that's really what we try to do in financial models. Corners give a broad covering all the different areas of modeling. And you want it to be educational. You want it to be fun. Any kind of school work for 40 minutes, hour, whatever. If it's all just dense and acronyms, you just kind of gloss over or you're like, ah, I'll just make it up or I'll ask AI to help me or whatever. And so I try to make these shows interesting. So I really appreciate you doing that. I was quite honored when you reached out and flattered. It's like, wow, somebody's actually listening because sometimes you wonder. So thank you for sharing that.


[00:32:02] Guest 2: Michael Tapia: Yeah, it's funny being in an MBA program. So you start to just absorb all the teachings of it, whether it's like due diligence. And I was doing my due diligence of benchmarking, researching, and I don't know what came over me to look up a financial modeling podcast, because I just like podcasts. And so the fact that there was one, I was so happy, and I think I listened to probably I don't know how many you had out at the time, maybe 40. I don't listen to all of them, like in a week, probably just consumed everything. So I appreciate it.


[00:32:36] Host: Paul Barnhurst: There's one other Brian or not. Ben, I remember his name. Now. There's the financial modeling show. He's out of South Africa. It's also really good if you get the chance. Bernard is the last name I'm trying to remember. I've done an episode with him before and he does one as well. That's just he does about 15 episodes a year, so he does kind of seasons and he's a guy out of South Africa, the models. So check some of his stuff out as well. He's great. He's a really, really good modeler, really nice guy. But yeah, there's not many. It's generally not the first thing you think of. But I'm going to listen to a podcast. I want to listen to someone talk about the three statements in a podcast. Yeah. No.


[00:33:14] Guest 1: Janice Shade: It's also very validating. Like it was very validating that like this is an important topic. There's actually podcasts about it.


[00:33:22] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah. And I've loved that. You know, that we've done this. It's been a really fun one. And FMI and Schnoor have been fabulous supporters of it. And so I'm grateful for that, that I'm able to make a little bit of money. By no means am I ever getting rich off my podcast. I'm not Joe Rogan, but I'll make a little bit of money and get to talk to people. It's great. It's a lot of fun. I'm going to shift gears a little bit, and we'll come back to some of the standard questions we have here in a minute. But why don't I ask a little more personal questions. And I'm going to go to you first on this, Janice. So I know you're kind of an entrepreneur at heart. You've done a lot of business. That's a passion of yours. You've founded several businesses. What did you what is it you like so much about that entrepreneurial journey, especially as you talked about a kind of sustainable capitalism or, you know, a new model of capitalism, really kind of focusing broader than what we've historically seen. 


[00:34:12] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Bad financial models can lead to bad decisions or worse. So, how do you minimize the risk of a bad model? You make sure the models you build are great. The Financial Modeling Institute developed the Advanced Financial Modeler accreditation program to help modelers like you. The AFM program offers a step-by-step approach to building world-class financial models. The program ensures that you know the best practices in model design and structure, and will help you brush up on your Excel and accounting skills to be the one on your team to build great models. If you want to impress your boss and your clients, get AFM accredited. Podcast listeners. Save 15% on the AFM program. Just use Code Podcast at www.FMInstitute.com/podcast.



[00:35:17] Guest 1: Janice Shade: It's so interesting to look back over. I'm no spring chicken anymore. It's kind of a long career. And seeing the long and winding road of it, I can kind of pinpoint back to the point where I kind of finally heeded my inner entrepreneur. I came across a quote, this is easily 20 or more years ago. So I was working at seventh generation, but it was a quote from Buckminster Fuller, which I actually have pulled up here so I can get it exactly right. Um, so Buckminster Fuller, who says you never change things by fighting the existing reality to change something, builds a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. And that spoke to me because I realized that something that I've been trying to do all my life through, um, you know, through entrepreneurship within corporations and just feeling like I was bumping my head up against a brick wall. So that was kind of it was very liberating. Like, I'm going to go try to do this on my own because I could see how things can and should be different. And I wanted to go and explore ways to try to make things different. And that's, you know, something that I've, I've come to realize sometimes the way I describe what I do is like it. It's both a blessing and a curse. I say sometimes that I can start to see solutions before a lot of people even know there's a problem.But I kind of feel like that's maybe, you know, part of why I'm here right now is to try to do that. And when I see something that needs changing, then, you know, I'm going to go try to find a better way to do it. Like, one of the things that, like, gets me fired up more than anything is to hear, well, like, why do we do things this way? Because that's the way we've always done it. Um.


[00:37:14] Host: Paul Barnhurst: I hate it.


[00:37:14] Guest 1: Janice Shade: It, hate it. And that's like, nothing will get me fired up more to find that new solution. Find that new model to make, um, existing models obsolete. More than that. And so a lot of what I've been doing over the last, um, you know, now 15, 20 years is looking at, um, looking at capital flows and, and capital relationships and starting to talk about capital in terms of relationships. Because, you know, one thing that I think we probably all can agree on is that, you know, finance, the money part of the business, is really at the root of everything. So especially in the world of sustainability, um, social entrepreneurship, I often say all of the the most compelling vision and missions in the world will be for not if you're not thinking about how this venture is structured financially and who's financing it and what is the, you know, what's the deal structure that is that is supporting this work? Because if you're not thinking about that, you can get derailed really easily by investor expectations or others. So I could talk about this stuff all day long. I won't go too much further, but I think that gives you a little taste of kind of like how from, from my standpoint, like how entrepreneurship kind of drives the work I'm trying to do in the world of sustainability and social entrepreneurism.


[00:38:43] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Thank you. I really appreciate you sharing that. And it's a great point. So many people want to start a business that's all designed around, you know, kind of doing good and helping others, but they have no idea of how to make it sustainable, how to make it profitable. And the reality is, regardless of what you think, we live in a capitalist world and there has to be a profitability model behind it. And if you can find that with your focus on doing good and marry the two together, it's amazing what you can accomplish. And there are many, many examples of people who have done that. And you know, I think these corp and these sustainable models are really the best path forward in my opinion. And I think you would agree with me too, Janice. And we need more of that, because people in society need to be at the forefront of what we're doing. But at the same time, we all have investors, we all have a living we need to make, and you have to balance it together.


[00:39:37] Guest 1: Janice Shade: Right on. It's that kind of that practical reality of all of the like, all of the good that you want to do in the world can't be done if you are not able to keep your lights on, whether you're a for profit or a nonprofit. And let's talk about that word profit. Its profit is not a four letter word. You know, there's nothing wrong with making a profit. How? You know, we could talk about whether there's too much profit or too much focus on profit. I could talk about that all day long. And it's why I find when I'm talking, especially with impact investors, to help them start to think you use some different language. Can we talk about optimizing profit rather than maximizing profit? And let's think about what optimizing profit means. And it opens up some really interesting conversations.


[00:40:29] Host: Paul Barnhurst: I could imagine that opened up a lot of doors. And like I said, I think you and I could possibly spend all day on the subject, and I'm sure Michael has some strong opinions here as well, or he wouldn't have done a sustainability program. But he's kind of nodding. There he goes. I've been a little quiet, but.


[00:40:42] Guest 2: Michael Tapia: Yeah, exactly.


[00:40:43] Host: Paul Barnhurst: I have some thoughts here as well. There's a reason you went to Bard and that wanted to sustain sustainability with an MBA. So let's talk a little bit about that. You went from kind of the sports fitness world to finance. What was the impetus, what was the reason for making that switch for you and for wanting a sustainable program?


[00:41:01] Guest 2: Michael Tapia: It came about wanting to blend my personal interests with my professional career. And I love education and helping people. And I was getting that as a personal trainer, but I felt like I reached my ceiling in that profession. And I wanted to have a broader impact. And so I saw how capital could be a force for good. Just like Janice was saying, especially when directed towards sustainability and community development. And I wanted to be part of the solution to help marginalized communities that will be most impacted by the effects of climate change. And now, with this class, I want to continue teaching and pass on the little knowledge that I have in this space, because I really enjoy the role of an educator, and it continually forces me to learn like we were talking about and get better, too, because I'm forced to look up things that I wasn't aware of because students are really smart and ask really good questions. And as I'm going through that path and actively looking for career opportunities in the finance space, that was kind of the impetus of switching from sports and fitness to sustainability in the finance space.


[00:42:06] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Thank you for sharing that. I appreciate that. And I'm glad you did or we probably wouldn't be here today. So thank you.


[00:42:13] Guest 2: Michael Tapia: It's me. I've met a lot of cool people in the process and you are definitely one of them. So. And Janice too. So it's been really fun the last couple of years.


[00:42:22] Host: Paul Barnhurst: That's great to have both of you on the show. And as you both know, I'm always happy to come back and speak to the students. Every time you do this. You're more than welcome to reach out. All right. We're going to move into some standard questions here. These are the ones everybody gets asked. So you're probably ready. And then we'll go to rapid fire and then we'll wrap up. I know we're getting kind of close to another time. But first, what's your favorite? Or you know, kind of maybe even one that people don't know. But favorite shortcut that you like in Excel? We'll start with you, Michael.


[00:42:50] Guest 2: Michael Tapia: There's so many I use the Mac, so I'm jealous of all the PC options.


[00:42:55] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Sorry, Janice. Just kidding. Now keep going.


[00:42:59] Guest 2: Michael Tapia: I'll keep it simple and say I'll pay special or command Z. Undo is probably my most and probably my most used.


[00:43:06] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah. Control Z or command Z in your case. Yeah, that's definitely one I use a lot. How about you, Janet?


[00:43:12] Guest 1: Janice Shade: I don't I don't know if this counts as a shortcut, but one of the things that I've just been loving, as I had to grade lots of models over the past semester, um, trace precedents, trace precedents and dependents and and even formula text. Been loving those.


[00:43:28] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah. Another I love, you know, kind of talking about control left bracket where you can kind of see what the where the formula is link and a lot of great things there I'm sure with having to, to grade them. So I could see why you wanted to trace precedent and trace dependence.


[00:43:43] Guest 1: Janice Shade: Yeah.


[00:43:44] Host: Paul Barnhurst: All right. Before we go to rapid fire, one more question. What's the most unique thing you have the most fun with? Creative thing you've built in Excel for your personal life? It doesn't necessarily have to be a model, but maybe something you've done. And, uh, I can see Janice kind of thinking and laughing a little bit. So maybe we'll go to you first on this one, Janice. Okay.


[00:44:07] Guest 1: Janice Shade: I'm laughing. Michael's going to laugh at this, too. I think this is a blast from the past. In the introductory finance class, we introduce students to cost benefit analysis. And so we have a kind of a format that we use to go through how to set up a cost benefit analysis. And to do that, the first year that I was teaching, which was Michael's first year two I. So the way we set up the cost benefit analysis is that you have to pick some kind of a decision, a personal decision that you had to make in your life and set up a CPA model for it. And so to illustrate, I used my daughter at the time she was trying to decide who she was, so my daughter is trained to be a professional ballet dancer. And at the time she was trying to choose between which summer ballet program she should go to. There was one in London and there was one in New York. And so I took the class. I tortured them with my thought process on what's going to be the, you know, the highest impact to her future career if she goes here or there. What's the financial impact of going to London versus going to New York? All that kind of stuff. So that was so useful to me. It was really helpful in our decision and I think it entertained the students.


[00:45:20] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah, I could see where that would be. Uh, one of the, uh. All right. London has this for but it costs more. New York has. And you're starting to kind of put it all together and go, okay, what's the return we're getting for the amount we're spending.


[00:45:33] Guest 1: Janice Shade: Right.


[00:45:33] Host: Paul Barnhurst: On your daughter's kind of like, really? Do we got to do this in a model? Mom, come on. Come on out here.


[00:45:39] Guest 1: Janice Shade: And oh, by the way, she's in London right now.


[00:45:44] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Well, there you go. And did the model say London?


[00:45:48] Guest 1: Janice Shade: It did, because the kind of when I factored in the impact to her future earning potential. Um the ballet dancers get paid way better outside the US than they do here.


[00:46:01] Host: Paul Barnhurst: I love it, I love that it went to that level. That's very creative and I love to see that. You can always tell when you have a finance type, nerd type person who in that way they do the analysis. Michael, what's your story?


[00:46:13] Guest 2: Michael Tapia: I don't have anything too exciting for my personal life, aside from using templates for things like personal budgets. But when I was a personal trainer, before I started paying for my own CRM tool, I would model out clients workout plans in Excel and do their projections and assumptions for their sets, reps, and weights. And I would usually do about 4 to 6 weeks at a time of their workout plan. But sometimes I would do a full year, and then it was really fun to see how close I got to projecting out their performance with their actual output, like side by side. So that was probably like my first intro to actual modeling, maybe like ten years ago. And that was actually kind of fun.


[00:46:51] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Now, did you have things like what you predicted their weight loss would be or how many. How much weight they would be lifting or what was kind of when you say the plan, like what were those kind of maybe 2 or 3 key things.


[00:47:04] Guest 2: Michael Tapia: It would be the certain exercises that we would pick and then the weight that they would do for that specific exercise, the weight stuff I kind of shied away from because it wasn't that important, um, for us in general. So it was mostly like the actual performance in their workout, because that was easier to kind of project out and have control over. So yeah.


[00:47:25] Host: Paul Barnhurst: That makes sense. All right. So we'll do rapid fire. I know we're kind of going a little longer than maybe we planned about an hour. So hopefully I got a few more minutes. We're going to run through rapid fire. You're the first ones to get the opportunity to say I plead the fifth to a certain question. Otherwise, kind of give me an answer. No, it depends just through yes or no. And I know you may not work with all of these. So sometimes you may just be like, no, and that's fine, but we'll go through them. What I'm going to do is, Michael, I'm going to ask you first and then Janice, you'll be second. And we're going to ask, so I'm not going to go through the whole list with one of you. I'm just going to ask each question to both of you, and we'll kind of go through it that way. I've done this a few different ways. I like to mix it up. So Michael circular are no circular references and models?


[00:48:07] Guest 2: Michael Tapia: No.


[00:48:08] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Janice.


[00:48:09] Guest 1: Janice Shade: No.


[00:48:11] Host: Paul Barnhurst: That's a solid no VBA Michael. Yes or no?


[00:48:15] Guest 2: Michael Tapia: No.


[00:48:16] Guest 1: Janice Shade: Janice I never use it.


[00:48:19] Host: Paul Barnhurst: All right. This one is just a preference thing. You prefer a horizontal lot of sheets or a kind of vertical or all your schedules are on one sheet. Michael.


[00:48:27] Guest 2: Michael Tapia: Vertical.


[00:48:28] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Janice.


[00:48:29] Guest 1: Janice Shade: Horizontal.


[00:48:31] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Hey, there we go. Good. We had some differences. Dynamic arrays and models. Some of these new formulas are unique and some ethanol is using a lot of dynamic type models. Yeah. In your models yes or no Michael. Yes Janice.


[00:48:44] Guest 1: Janice Shade: Also yes.


[00:48:45] Host: Paul Barnhurst: How about fully dynamic. You know, doing 100% of these dynamic array models. Do you think we're there yet? You think we should. People should be doing that. Yes or no?


[00:48:55] Guest 2: Michael Tapia: No.


[00:48:56] Guest 1: Janice Shade: It scares me.


[00:48:58] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah. I think the answer is no. I think we're getting there. I think it's just a matter of time, but I don't think we're there yet personally. So I'm with you on that one. External workbook links. Michael.


[00:49:08] Guest 2: Michael Tapia: No.


[00:49:09] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Janice, sometimes we can give you that one. I'll give you the one. Sometimes I get it. So that's a yes. Yes. All right. Named ranges. Yes or no Michael.


[00:49:23] Guest 2: Michael Tapia: No.


[00:49:24] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Janice.


[00:49:24] Guest 1: Janice Shade: Also no.


[00:49:26] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Interesting. We all get a big mix on that one. Do either of you. We'll start again with you Michael. Follow formal standards like there's, you know, some very long standards. I will say exactly how you should build modeling like fast or smart or some of the others if you follow a formal standard.


[00:49:40] Guest 2: Michael Tapia: No, no, I'll just keep it a no. And then I can caveat.


[00:49:44] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah, yeah, you can elaborate. I'm going to guess there's some principles you follow, but not a formal standard Dennis.


[00:49:49] Guest 1: Janice Shade: It's the Same. Same. Yep. No.


[00:49:52] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Right. So these are kind of just some subjective ones here as far as learning. You know, some of the hot button topics you think modelers should learn Python in Excel. Michael.


[00:50:02] Guest 2: Michael Tapia: I'll say no for now.


[00:50:04] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah. Not surprised you added this. For now. Janice.


[00:50:07] Guest 1: Janice Shade: I don't know, maybe.


[00:50:10] Host: Paul Barnhurst: All right. We'll give you that one. What about Power Query? Michael?


[00:50:14] Guest 2: Michael Tapia: No. For now.


[00:50:16] Host: Paul Barnhurst: All right. Janice.


[00:50:17] Guest 1: Janice Shade: Same. No. Yeah. No.


[00:50:19] Host: Paul Barnhurst: All right. How about power BI?


[00:50:21] Guest 2: Michael Tapia: I also know for now, but I have an explanation for all three.


[00:50:26] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Janice.


[00:50:27] Guest 1: Janice Shade: Yeah, that's like somebody else can learn that. I'm not going to.


[00:50:31] Host: Paul Barnhurst: All right. I'm like, all right. This is the one that's always fun. We'll excel every day. Michael.


[00:50:37] Guest 2: Michael Tapia: No, I don't think so. Don't seem like it is.


[00:50:40] Guest 1: Janice Shade: God, I hope not. Or at least not in my lifetime.


[00:50:43] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah, I've had more than a few people go. Yes. Just don't let it happen in my lifetime. So. Same. All right. Will I build the models for us in the future? What do you think, Michael?


[00:50:52] Guest 2: Michael Tapia: No.


[00:50:53] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Janice.


[00:50:54] Guest 1: Janice Shade: I think it could probably build basic models, but human intervention will always be needed.


[00:51:01] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Okay, yeah, I get that we get that a lot. All right, so here's one. It's kind of more subjective. Do you believe financial models are the number one corporate decision making tool? Michael.


[00:51:13] Guest 2: Michael Tapia: Yes.


[00:51:14] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Janice.


[00:51:15] Guest 1: Janice Shade: Agree? Yes.


[00:51:16] Host: Paul Barnhurst: All right. And then what's your favorite lookup function? Michael.


[00:51:21] Guest 2: Michael Tapia: I was going to say lookup, but I really enjoyed using choose, especially when for ease of use and teaching for scenario analysis. The choice function is great.


[00:51:30] Host: Paul Barnhurst: You are going to be a good friend of INS. Now that's his favorite in Schnoor. That is our sponsor of this podcast. So he's a huge cheese guy. Janice. Perfect.


[00:51:40] Guest 1: Janice Shade: Well, so Michael introduced me to choose this course and I love it for like, it's just so simple and I love seeing how students like it's logical to them. And they could help them to really understand what is possible.


[00:51:57] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Much better than the long nested, if that's for sure.


[00:51:59] Guest 1: Janice Shade: Oh my.


[00:52:00] Host: Paul Barnhurst: God.


[00:52:01] Guest 1: Janice Shade: So things in the past.


[00:52:03] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah. Well, great. Anyway, is there anything you want to elaborate from that list Michael will give you first pass. Is there one you mentioned? Kind of the three I thought of maybe Power Query, Python, power BI somewhere you want to go, but feel free to elaborate on an answer there.


[00:52:18] Guest 2: Michael Tapia: For those three. As someone who loves education, I think they're great to learn and to know, especially when you're handed models and people do model differently and have different, uh, experience with these tools and platforms. I think it is good to know before our class, and we are just doing annuals like financial models or year over year basically. So not super necessary. So that's why I was leaning towards no on those three rather than then? Yes, as super necessary at the moment.


[00:52:50] Host: Paul Barnhurst: No totally makes sense. And a lot of it does depend where you're at. I worked in FP and you better know Power Query if you're using Excel and you're bringing in actuals, right? But if you're doing something different, you may not need that. So it is very subjective. And I recognize this. That's why I don't let people say it depends. It's not real fun to listen to somebody say it depends for five straight minutes. Yanis, anything you want to elaborate on from the list?


[00:53:14] Guest 1: Janice Shade: You know, the AI question I think is really interesting. And what, um, what it could do. I'm. I'm reading a really interesting book right now about the power of AI, and it's changing my mind. It has changed my mind around whether I think I could, could build a model. Like if you had asked me two weeks ago, I might have said no. And I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing. Like there are, there are parts that, um, that might, you know, part of what a model does for us is that it simplifies a lot of the busy work so that we can focus on making decisions. And if I can do that with a model, why not?


[00:53:57] Host: Paul Barnhurst: I'm fully with you, right? I think there always needs to be a human in the loop. You need to validate assumptions, review things, understand the business, understand what it's doing. You should know how to model. But if it can build it for me and it can save me eight hours and I can then, you know, focus on some other things that may be more important. I'm all for that. I don't have a problem with that.


[00:54:17] Guest 1: Janice Shade: Yeah. You know, kind of back to your comment about the sniff test. I can't do a sniff test. Just doesn't have the capability. That's where humans come in.


[00:54:26] Host: Paul Barnhurst: All right. Last, last question. Then we'll let you go. This has been really fun. I think I could go for a couple hours, but I'm not sure our audience wants to go that long, so we'll do this one first to you, Janice. You know, if our audience would like to learn more about you or potentially get in touch with you, what's the best way for them to do that?


[00:54:44] Guest 1: Janice Shade: The best way. Connect with me on LinkedIn. Um, I know that the school year is over, I'm going to get back to, um, getting more active there. Or you can even just reach me at, um, J shade at Bard. Edu.


[00:54:56] Host: Paul Barnhurst: All right. Great. Michael.


[00:54:58] Guest 2: Michael Tapia: Yeah, LinkedIn is probably best now that I've graduated and have more time. And I'm utilizing it more and posting more on there to connect with more finance and sustainability folks, especially as I'm looking for my next opportunity and recapping this past semester and ramping up for the next iteration of this class. And before you let us go, Paul, I just wanted to say thank you and express how appreciative we are and I am as a student finding your podcast. It was so helpful for us and for me and finding other thought leaders in the space or just resources. You provided so many invaluable resources. And yeah, I just wanted to say thank you for the work that you're doing. It doesn't go unnoticed, and we would love to have you back as a guest speaker again this fall for the next round of students taking the course.


[00:55:43] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Well, awesome. We'll call it a day. We'll call it a plan there. And thank you so much. I appreciate it. And this is why I do it, because I know there's people out there that it provides value to and I love doing it. So it's been great chatting with both of you. Like I said, I could go a lot longer, but I know we all have things to do today. So thank you, Michael. Thank you, Janice so much for being on the show.


[00:56:04] Guest 1: Janice Shade: Thanks, Paul.


[00:56:06] Guest 2: Michael Tapia: Thank you Paul.


[00:56:07] Host: Paul Barnhurst: :Financial Modeler's Corner was brought to you by the Financial Modeling Institute. This year, I completed the Advanced Financial Modeler certification and it made me a better financial modeler. What are you waiting for? Visit FMI at www.FMInstitute.com/podcast and use Code Podcast to save 15% when you enroll in one of the accreditations today.

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